With their 15 point margin last week, the campaign was looking like a runaway freight train for the Harper Conservatives. However, a number of new factors have diminished the Conservative lead, which is still comfortable, to 9 points.
First, Harper’s culture comments renewed BQ support in Quebec. Combine the Richardson comments related to immigrants causing crime and Harper’s comments asserting Dion wanted the economy to perform poorly and the gap narrowed from 15 to 9 points. These two comments represent a tenuous lifeline to the Liberal campaign.
Tonight, Nik Nanos, President of Nanos Research and Official CPAC Pollster, joins Goldhawk Live host Dale Goldhawk at 7 pm ET / 4 pm PT to discuss the latest results. For more detailed information on the methodology and the statistical results visit the Nanos Research website at http://www.nanosresearch.com.
Methodology and Results
A national random telephone survey is conducted nightly by Nanos Research throughout the campaign. Each evening a new group of 400 eligible voters is interviewed. The daily tracking figures are based on a three-day rolling sample comprised of 1,200 interviews. To update the tracking, a new day of interviewing is added and the oldest day dropped. The margin of accuracy is ±2.8%, 19 times out of 20 for 1,200 random interviews.
The numbers in parenthesis denote the change from the previous Nanos Research Survey completed on September 26, 2008.
Question: If a FEDERAL election were held today, could you please rank your top two current local voting preferences? (First ranked reported)
Committed Voters - Canada (N=990, MoE ± 3.1%, 19 times out of 20)
- Conservative Party 36 (-3)
- Liberal Party 27 (+2)
- NDP 19 (NC)
- Green Party 9% (NC)
- BQ 9% (+1)
- Undecided 18% (+2)
Question: Of the following individuals, who do you think would make the best Prime Minister? [Rotate] (N=1,202,MoE ± 2.8%, 19 times out of 20)
- Conservative leader Stephen Harper 36% (-1)
- NDP leader Jack Layton 18% (-1)
- Liberal leader Stephane Dion 12% (+1)
- Green Party leader Elizabeth May 4% (NC)
- Bloc Quebecois leader Gilles Duceppe 4% (NC)
- None of them 8% (NC)
- Unsure 17% (NC)
Question: Which of the federal leaders would you best describe as:
- The most trustworthy leader
- The most competent leader
- The leader with the best vision for Canada’s future
[Leadership Index Score - Daily roll-up of all three measures]
- Stephen Harper 92 (+7)
- Stephane Dion 53 (+11)
- Jack Layton 50 (-6)
- Gilles Duceppe 17 (+6)
- Elizabeth May 11 (-9)
What do you think?
Cheers, NJN
Remember to rate the views of others - to allow us to recognize the opinion leaders in our national conversation.
Individuals with the top ratings make it to Nik’s Leaderboard
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Most Read Comments
Highest Rated Comments
Phew! But Harper still has a 9 point lead. Methinks he or his party would have... more
rsharp (Québec) 28 Sep 14:28
Does Canadian constitution allow formation of Green and Lib coalition government... more
shk (Ontario) 28 Sep 14:46
Things are tightening up again. Polls are like rollercoasters. Hold on and enj... more
fortescue (Ontario) 28 Sep 14:02
Wow. You're not the brightest bulb in the drawer, are you :) Nik's talented, ... more
Foxer (British Columbia) 28 Sep 21:09
I would have slept just fine with a nine point lead, much better than Stephane I... more
MRM (Manitoba) 28 Sep 21:22
rsharp 1. As a member nation we have obligations under both NATO and the UN.... more
HC in AB (Alberta) 28 Sep 21:28
Comments
fortescue
Things are tightening up again. Polls are like rollercoasters. Hold on and enjoy the ride. Quebec looks like they will determine whether its a majority or not?
[updated Sun Sep 28 14:02:03 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 14:02
2 replies so far. Join this conversationHide this conversation.
Phew! But Harper still has a 9 point lead. Methinks he or his party would have to do something monumentally stupid to blow it now. Or Bushco does, which spills across our once unguarded border.
The Liberals are going to be the official opposition. The only real question is whether or not we get a Tory majority. And what then?
Maybe we should draw up a "behavioural contract" for Harper. I'll do the first draft:
1. I promise not to get Canada into any more wars unless in self-defence, defence of an ally or as requested by the United Nations' Security Council to prevent genocide.
2. I promise to stop my rush to deregulate the private sector, whether competiton law, financial markets, environmental protection, labour standards or consumer protection.
3. I promise not to drag up resolved social issues, unless a specific campaign platform. These would include: a woman's right to choose, the death penalty, soft drugs, young offenders, the separation of church and state...
4. I promise to leave the wheat board, CBC, Canada Post and other Crown corporations alone.
5. I promise not to interfere with the legitimate duties of the the human rights, privacy access to information and official languages commissions.
6. I promise to stop muzzling government departments, so that they too can do their jobs.
You get my drift. Please feel free to add to the list.
[updated Sun Sep 28 14:28:12 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 14:28
116 replies so far. Join this conversationHide this conversation.
christine
There will be no majority with these numbers according to the election predictor on the Hill and Knowlton web site. Here are the results:
Cons: 136
Libs 84
NDP 38
Bloc 50
The electionprediction.com web site is also leaning in the direction of a minority, and the split below actually reflects yesterday's figures, so the Conservative seats may be inflated, and those of the other parties deflated.
Conservateurs 118
Liberals 72
N.D.P 22
Bloc 29
Other 2
Too Close 65
Total 308
The "too close to call ridings" appear to be more or less evenly distributed, some leaning Conservative, some Liberal, some Bloc, and some NDP. It would be fool hardy to assume even half of them would go Conservative and even if they did it would still not be a majority.
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:03:33 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:03
I am comforted by these projections but the Tory campaign has been described by none other than Nik as a train wreck, and might yet attain majority status.
I read the papers and watch/listen to the news (CBC). The coverage is overwhelmingly negative on Dion and the Libs. It makes no sense whatsoever, but it's happening.
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:10:44 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:10
Peggy
Switch to CTV-they'll make you happy. Mike Duffy told Dion the other night he thought he was a hero!!!! Imagine a journalist supposedly neutral saying that to a candidate in an election. Unbelievable!!!!!!!!
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:26:14 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:26
fortescue
Duffy is just a positive guy. i am a conservative and duffy does not seem biased to me. I have not problem giving credit and respect to non consevatives, nor should an unbiased reporter. Its just the love affairs that some reporters have for a party and the toal disdain the have for the other is a problem. You can love them both, you can hate them both, but you cannot pick and choose and be or appear to be independant.
ie the red star, the cretien bradcasting corporation,
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:34:13 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:34
christine
I agree with you about the negative coverage but the good news from this poll is that in spite of all the trashing of Dion the Conservatives are failing to make inroads in the two most populous provinces, Ontario and Quebec. There's no chance whatsoever now of a major Conservative breakthrough in Quebec given the resurgence of the Bloc, and, according to this poll, the Liberals are, once again, out in front of the Conservatives in Ontario. So, if the Bloc gets the same 50 seats or so, and the Liberals hold on to most of the seats they have (which they should since the vote distribution in this poll isn't that different from the final results of the 2006 election) there really isn't much growth for the Conservatives elsewhere. Atlantic Canada has so few seats, and there's no indication there of a massive swing to the Conservatives. As for the west there's not much room for growth there either since the Conservatives already have most of the seats anyway, and the Liberals have so few. Sure, they may pick up a couple seats from the Liberals in BC (though I think most vulnerable BC seats will go NDP, particularly in Vancouver) but not enough for a majority.
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:38:34 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:38
Peggy
Is anyone else embarassed by the whining of Dion with regards to Harper's attacks on him-he always appears like he's going to cry. Especially when he goes on about what a great Canadian he is!!! This is a guy that had a Rene Levesque poster in his room and a PQ membership in his pocket in1976-he was 21 and voting age!!!!! Give me a break!!! This according to his biography.
[updated Sun Sep 28 16:32:13 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 16:32
Peggy, I'm saddened by your attack on Dion. I just listened to him on Rex Murphy, where he took some tough hits from obvious Tory plants..... starting off so reasonable and then low-belting him. He kept his cool, and answered with intelligence and passion.
It's Dion or Harper. Who is the most devoted to ordinary Canadians (vs. the USA or Big Business)? Who is the most trustworthy, decent and respectful of others?
On the other side of the ledger, who is the most mean, controlling and secretive?
[updated Sun Sep 28 18:03:15 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 18:03
Foxer
He does sound like a whiner actually. It's being commented on quite a bit - he really doesn't do well when he's 'excited'.
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:08:32 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:08
Foxer, more predictable trash talk from a trained poodle. I listened to the entire Rex Murphy show. Mr. Dion was respectfull or all callers, no matter their insults and innuendos. He didn't whine in the slighest.
When you attack Mr. Dion in your next post, do me a favour Back it up with facts.
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:18:46 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:18
fortescue
your saddened by the attack on Dion. I am saddened that the liberals offered up such a poor leader. Dion may be smart, would be good in a cabinet, but he is not a leader. He led baseless and constant allegations against the conservatives, one he is being sued for. He led the liberals to sit on there hands. he led the parliment to become so disfunctional even the speaker had to warn parliment, he led a totally partisan investigation into Mulroney, ( he governed one minority and three majority's ago, get over it), he led a the opposition to the kyoto conference to criticise the leader of the country on foreign soil (very unpatriotic), he led the liberals into a fiscal abyss, he led the liberals so far to the left people are actually considering voting ndp instead of liberal, he led the liberal government to inaction on the enviroment (passing kyota and doing nothing to hit targets while enviroment minister) That is why he is not a leader. People notice what happens in question period and committees, they see the constant partisan attacks, they are sick of it. Notice the worst attack ads in election..Liberals. People notice strong leadership from Harper, he talks the talk and walks the walk. Yes he broke his promise on income trust, it was the right thing to do. You cannot allow every public company to turn into an income trust its bad for the economy. Tough decision, he knew consequences and did it anyway. I note Dion is not reversing decision, no new income trust. Just allowing existing ones to be tax differently. Clearly unfair to there competitors, but Dion does not care, its about the politics, not sound fiscal management.
Harper ....Leadership you can trust :)
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:45:25 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:45
Taylor Cutforth
I agree with everything you said with the exception of
The first Conservative majority government in 26 years – and their fourth in the 20th century - won both the 1984 and 1988 election with two consecutive majority governments.
I had earlier thought that they held a minority under Campbell for some reason, but I was wrong and was basing that off what little memory I had from that time period.
(I was in grade 2 or 3... heck, I don't even remember)
Unlike some people on here like rsharp, I go back and fact check when I'm wrong.
That, AND; rscharp is completely void of any common sense or factual basis for his beliefs.
Anyone who reads through these blogs would agree with that.
But I'll leave it for everyone to speak for themselves.
[updated Mon Sep 29 00:39:19 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 00:39
Saddened, yes. Disheartened too. The Cons have it over the rest of us and you folks represent maybe 20-25% of the electorate. Our electoral systems sucks.
[updated Mon Sep 29 00:42:23 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 00:42
Foxer
That WAS the fact - he sounds like a whiner.
If you want a more specific break down, he has a tendancy to raise his voice pitch when he gets 'excited'. Compare this to other 'powerful speakers, most of whom don't allow that to happen unless it's intentional to highlight a point and then it drops again.
he bobbles his head. Which is in contrast to the strong stance normally recommended for public speaking.
His comments tend towards 'complaining' or the rediculous (like saying he'll win the election. Right.)
Look at laytons' speech calling everyone to get behind him. Then play dion's. you'll see what i mean.
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:10:02 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:10
Foxer, your comments are demented. You question Mr. Dion's voice pitch and head bobbles. You, Sir, are unworthy of debate.
Let me be clear.. I am looking for the most honest, trustworthy and decent man to lead my country forward. That would not be Mr. Harper. He's my last choice./
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:26:40 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:26
Foxer
He sounds and looks like a whiner. That was the original comment - you wanted more details - i provided them.
There is a way to hold yourself to look like a strong speaker. There are experts who train people on nothing else. Dion looks and sounds poor. Mind you - it is his first national campaign.
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:53:17 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:53
"looks like," "sounds poor." Foxer, I have higher standards.
[updated Sun Sep 28 21:06:20 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 21:06
Foxer
LOL - you like a party that takes brown envelopes at restaurants - i don't think 'standards' come into play :)
but - how a speaker appears is not a matter of 'standards' - it's simply a matter of appearance. Most folks train for it if they're going to be speaking publically - i'm sure you've heard of toastmasters for example.
One wants to try to hold ones self in a confident and commanding manner. Bob rae is good enough at it for example.
Dion just looks whiny. It's just a comment. I was just pointing out it's understandable that peggy thinks he's whiny.
[updated Sun Sep 28 21:55:48 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 21:55
westerner (suspended)
Read Margaret Wente's column in the Sept. 23 G and M.
It was entitled "Any Weaker and Mr. Dion would need a blood transfusion" She says "Some political reporters say he is the weakest national leader they've ever seen". Says one veteran observer "He is totally unprepared for the job of national leader of the Liberal party."
He is Canada's Sarah Palin.
[updated Sun Sep 28 22:19:36 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 22:19
Taylor Cutforth
Dion certainly has something of a 'kermit the frog factor' in his voice, at times.
And also plays into the South Park perspective of "head bobble-ly" canadians. Or whatever the whole deal with that was.
Though I would say, almost as a compliment that if we were to discover that Dion is really Sacha Baron Cohen incognito as some sort of strange publicity stunt for a movie or something odd. Which I may have stated before, but I'm certainly not alone in my suspicions given his day-to-day comical bumbling(s).
[updated Mon Sep 29 00:50:37 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 00:50
gretag
The press has been incredibly disappointing. I notice the Toronto Star had to issue a "correction" on a "news" article describing Dion's speech in Winnipeg. The entire article was built around a falsehood (Dion saying the Green Shift was not a central part of the Liberal platform). The CBC ran the same "news" but never retracted it. That is just one of the more obvious, but overall, coverage is horrid. I've been at events and not recognized the news reports of them.
And polls, sorry Nik, but there have been so many polls I am now turned off them completely. Show me rises, show me drops, and I'm just not going to believe anything anymore. Nothing personal, you have a great track record. But the reality is there is only a single data point for each election and the pollsters are "measuring" points day in and day out. Election news is now nothing more than spin around polls and I'm tired of it.
I seek out a few independent news sources. The NDP, Green and Liberal platforms are all available for us to read. There seems little reason for Harper to issue a platform. He has already informed us that on some things, like costing his cap and trade proposal, he will not give us the numbers until after the election anyway. His followers ask so little of him.
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:38:54 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:38
gretag, I am in total accord. We are getting lifeless coverage about the election from the MSM. It's sickening.
What will Harper do if he wins a majority? A whole lot of really scary things.
Wait. It appears we don't need to know that.
[updated Mon Sep 29 13:11:37 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 13:11
Mr. Harper is scary. Come on people, speak up!
[updated Mon Sep 29 13:28:02 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 13:28
psiclone
The numbers used for BC do not reflect anything near what the local polling for the west is showing here subtract at least 7 - 10 Liberal seats and give them to the NDP and add around 10 - 15 Conservative and you get a better picture
[updated Mon Sep 29 16:51:21 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 16:51
fortescue
1. What about our treaty obligations with NATO/? As amember of NATO we are obligated to defend any member who is attacked
2. I do not believe he has indicated any major changes are planned, but there is always room to improve and tinker at the edges incrementally. I think new technology will demand regulation changes over the next 8 glorious years:)
3. Agreed. However young offenders will change. he has said so and will follow through. Consumer protection will be strengthened to deal with new issues such as china, and health related issues. I do not forsee any changes in laws surrounding soft drugs. Although I could see tougher sentances for the combination of guns and drugs.
4. wheat board has been talked about. CBC radio is one of my favorite stations, television ho hum, except the hockey. However there obnoxias biased reporting is infamous in conservative circles, read the conservative blogs sometime. CBC is unfair. they may have made some enemies. You reap what you sew. I do not want to see them go, but they are sewing there own destiny. No plans, but dont expect any new multi billion dollar downtown studios, or any sympathy from the tories.
5.Mostly agrred. HRDC bye bye.. at least as far as the recent attacks on free speech goes. Hate speech is already illegal. (and please dont call me a racist) leave it for the courts. To many bizzarre rulings and to many attacks on free speech. Macleans? give me a break.
6. not sure what you mean here. But I do not believe this should be a concern. departments should always report through the misnister in charge of the department. Agree reports should not be withheld for extended periods. Governments (liberal or conservative) should be the first to review so they can plan the course of action the government plans before they are blindly attacked by opposition.
7. No new taxes
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:21:29 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:21
MRM
Everyone on the left on this blog is jumping with joy because one poll shows them only nine points behind. Incredible? Is that what the Liberals have been reduced to? Where does it say that the Liberals are ahead in ON?
I think given Harper's and Dions debating skills a nine point lead is pretty good going into the last two weks of the campaign and the debates.
That said this is likely a rogue poll and the numbers are low. We will see with tommorrow's results.
[updated Sun Sep 28 17:32:23 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 17:32
christine
For the regional breakdown you have to go to the Nanos Research web site for more detailed analysis. This analysis does indeed show that the Liberals are ahead in Ontario.
Check it out yourself. Here's the link:
http://www.nanosresearch.com/election/CPAC-Nanos-September-28-2008E.pdf
[updated Sun Sep 28 17:50:25 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 17:50
Foxer
If it's a rogue it won't clear by tomorrow mrm - it'll take two or three days. Rolling poll, remember?
But - if it's the second weekend in a row that happened (a sudden improbable drop one day with a sudden rise a few days later) then it's not likely a rogue - there's something wrong with how nik's collecting numbers.
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:10:53 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:10
MRM
Foxer - I meant tommorrows number with todays factored in. You can already see that the lastest Nanos poll is trending back up showing 39 Tory - 25 Liberal.
Here are the Latest Polls. You can see more detail on the G&M website. Note that none of them show the Liberals leading in ON or anywhere else in the country including Atlantic Canada
Nanos 14 pt Tory lead
Harris Decima 11 pt Tory lead
Ipsos 16 pt Tory lead
Angus Reid 19 pt Tory lead
The Poll of Polls – 14 pt Tory lead
Ekos 10 pt Tory lead (from 26 Sept)
Tories lead in every region of the country except Que where they still have a six pt lead over the Liberals. They also have a six pt lead in ON.
All the polls are dated 27 or 28 Sept (except the Ekos poll - 26 Sept) with the highest margin of error at 3.1%
Battleground numbers:
ON 13 pt Tory lead
BC 13 pt Tory lead
Que nine pt lead for the Bloc over the Tories who have a four pt lead over the Liberals.
These polls are dated 23 – 25 Sept so do not take into account the Tory gains indicated above.
Source CTV / G&M
[updated Sun Sep 28 21:34:49 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 21:34
1, Afghanistan didn't attack the USA
2. Harper will continue to deregulate anything in the way of the private sector, "sans doute." Environmentalists, workers, investors, consumers? Beware.
3. Harper will try to roll back the clock on matters of individual choice, such as abortion, and our criminal justice system will take a major hit from this Neanderthal Man. Youth? Screw them. Soft drugs? Yeah, they count, no matter the ridiculous degree to which they already clog the system.
4. Privatization and deregulation when it is plain as day that these (business) guys shouldn't be trusted for a minute? Well, that's Harper. He doesn't give a damn about facts or reason.
5. Control and secrecy? Harper is the most of both of any PM in the history of Canada. By far. By far. He is truly scary.
He's an ideologue and that, my friend, is a very dangerous man to put in charge.
[updated Sun Sep 28 18:54:17 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 18:54
Foxer
1 - they hid and sheltered those who did. By canadian law and international law that makes them as guilty as if they'd launched the attack themselves.
If you hide a murderer - you share in the crime of his killing.
2 - harper actually hired MORE inspectors than the libs had. And everything they did had to be done with the agreement of parliament - it was a minority remember?
3 - dion will crush the economy by charging the green tax and then not giving the income tax break he promised. (seeing we're just making stuff up apperently what the hell - it's more likely than any of the crap you produced).
4 - Walkerton and a dozen other disasters happened under the libs. Not to mention the fact that violent crime is up in younger people thanks to liberals letting criminals out on the streets to 'rehabilitate themselves'. It's interesting he feels business can't be trusted but criminals can.
5 - no - harper is more open and honest than most. Chretien was the worst.
Harper is no ideologue - he's a realist. He says what he means and does what he says.
Dion is an ideologue who wants to conduct social experiments even if it destroys the economy. And he can't seem to stick to a decision for more than a few hours - "the green shift isn't a major plank - wait yes it is - no - yes.. umm what was the question agian? "
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:18:56 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:18
Foxer, a fool and his ideas are soon parted.
1. Let me say this again. Afghanistan didn't attack the USA or Canada. It may have harboured bin Laden but it would have given him up if shown evidence of his guilt in 9/11. The Americans refused and invaded anyway and we went along.
2. If you actually believe that Harper would be more willing then Dion to regulate the private sector when it comes the food safety, the environment,.labour standards, consumer protection, etc., you are even more foolhardy than I could imagine.
3. Let's not even get into his secret plans to privatize or underfund 100-year old departments and agencies he personally disagrees with, to cut auditors and anyone else who might come up with a different answer than his....
Harper is scary. Didn't I make that clear?
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:30:39 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:30
Foxer
You are living proof that a fool and his ideas are not easily parted at all. :)
1 - Let me say this again - every international law including canada's say that by supporting the terrorists before the attack and by sheilding them after the attack they are every bit as guilty. And they wouldn't have given him up with 'more' evidence - hell we had tapes of bin laden saying he did it.
2 - I don' think dion has any intention of regulating anything. He was in charge of kyoto - boy he sure cracked down on industry and got them in line then didn't he.
3 - ahhh more secret plans. Plus he eats babies. Harper has a dog. Hitler had a dog. Is harper training his dog to attack seniors? We don't know. He isn't saying.
ROFL - the only reason Harper is scary to liberals is they know that after canadians get a taste of an honest gov't the libs will never be in power again. Good bye dion - don't let the door hit your ass on the way out :)
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:21:15 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:21
MRM
rsharp - Blah, blah, blah. Isn't it time you got some new schtick? This is getting really stale. Nobody cares about your misrepresentations about Afghanistan or your hidden agenda crap anymore. Move on.
[updated Sun Sep 28 21:38:20 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 21:38
Thanks MRM. Your repeated nonsense keeps me inspired. "Nobody cares?." I believe a whole lot of us care. Which is why, I hope, we can stop Harper from winning a majority. Because, if he does, we are in big, big trouble.
[updated Mon Sep 29 00:12:54 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 00:12
MRM
How's that goin for ya so far?
[updated Mon Sep 29 00:16:34 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 00:16
MRM, you are the easiest pickins' on the site, bar none. You're so..... automatic. Predictable. Almost like a machine.
[updated Mon Sep 29 00:22:57 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 00:22
MRM
rsharp - Talk about predictable. For instance I know when you are out of answers and are about to stop responding. I can go through old posts and see all the times that you ran out of answers and chuckle each time. Then low and behold you pop out the same nonsense that you lost a debate on three weeks before. Your stuff never changes. I hope that you are cutting and pasting to save yourself some work. If you don't know how larryl just learned and can teach you. But seriously, you do need some new material. We can only make you look foolish on the same posts so many times before it just gets boring.
[updated Mon Sep 29 00:49:36 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 00:49
MRM, please reread your attack against me that you just posted. It's strangely familiar to about 20 or so previous attacks.
I'm still standing and your slander and name-calling are but slight hurdles.
Your ignorance is insurmountable but there are bigger fish to fry.
[updated Mon Sep 29 01:03:09 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 01:03
MRM
rsharp - Good comeback It would be really good if it were true but I know that the truth is way to much to ask for. I'll just have to settle for more blah,blah,blah. As usual all rhetoric and no substance.
[updated Mon Sep 29 01:16:47 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 01:16
Good night, guppie.
[updated Mon Sep 29 01:20:46 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 01:20
MRM
Another zinger! You're really on tonight. Good night Sharp. Sleep well.
[updated Mon Sep 29 01:25:07 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 01:25
I was doing my best to put you to bed, a deserved end to a fruitless debate. You will never come around. Nor will I.
[updated Mon Sep 29 01:40:47 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 01:40
westerner (suspended)
You are beginning to sound like Paul Martin when he reached a panic stage before the last election. "There will be soldiers with guns in the street of our cities." "He will take away a woman's right to choose." Scary Guy--Like Dion who is a very dangerous man.
[updated Sun Sep 28 22:23:50 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 22:23
westerner, grow up. We adults care about our families and the future for our children. Do you really believe Harper and his 19th century philosophy is of any use to us in the 21st? there is no going back, my friend.
[updated Mon Sep 29 00:20:23 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 00:20
westerner (suspended)
You need to panic less with your scare tactics. They didn't work last time and they are stupid and won't work now. Harper today ruled out completely any revisiting of the abortion debate. The real scary guys are Stevie Dion and Jack Layton with their his far left agendas.
[updated Mon Sep 29 11:17:59 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 11:17
Mr. Harper's fear and smear tactics scare me. I don't trust this man for a minute.
Look at his record! Look at what he has said about his own country vs. his beloved United States. Look at his support for the war against Iraq. Look at his mean, manipulative and secretive ways.
Peace, order and good government? I'll take Dion.
[updated Mon Sep 29 11:23:04 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 11:23
westerner (suspended)
If you are passionate about turning around the Liberals performance in the polls this is not the best place to do it. You are talking to about 8 people and only about 3 are not Conservative supporters. I found door knocking and literature distribution a better way to contribute and change opinions.
[updated Mon Sep 29 11:41:42 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 11:41
Lex Llewdor
NATO decided that they did, and thus we were compelled to offer support to the US.
Now, we're only actually required to take part in combat operations for combat that takes place inside a NATO country (or territory that was part of a NATO country in 1947 - like Algeria).
So, had the recent conflict between Russia and Georgia happened two years later (when Georgia would have then been a NATO member), we, along with the Americans, and the British, and the French, and Iceland, and a great many other countries, would have been compelled to go to war with the Russians in order to liberate our ally.
That's how mutual defense treaties work.
[updated Mon Sep 29 12:16:07 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 12:16
Lex, thanks for the lesson, however misgotten. Canada was not "compelled" to invade and occupy Afghanistan. Uuuh. North Atlantic Treaty Organization? Afghanistan? Look at a map.
Now, about Russia. The Americans are closing in on them militarily - missile launching assistance in Poland, the Ukraine, all around. As if it's needed.
That is just madness. Kick him when he's down will come back to haunt you, every time?
[updated Mon Sep 29 12:33:18 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 12:33
MRM
rsharp - Canada did not invade Afghanistan. The US and UK did with UN sanction. Canada went in after at the request of the UN and NATO and the invitation of the Afghan govt. These are historical facts. You unwillingness or inability to understand that will not change history.
[updated Wed Oct 01 00:46:56 -0400 2008]
01 Oct 00:46
Let's agree to disagree. We're occupying their country, propping up an American puppet regime, causing death and destruction, refusing to talk to the enemy (way more than the Taliban), hunkered down, losing the fight for "hearts and minds" everywhere, etc.
[updated Wed Oct 01 09:36:38 -0400 2008]
01 Oct 09:36
Can we draw up a similar contract for the opposition party?
1) The mandate is given to those who win an election. If the NDP garner less than 20% of the vote only 20% of their members should jump up and down every time they don't like a policy. The others can offer constructive criticism but not delay the bill or subvert the government by comittee.
2) Give equal time in protest/speeches from opposition to reflect the victim/Canadian Forces vs criminals, specials interest groups, taliban.
3) If the government wants to reduce government waste in offer alternatives other than tax the rich and corporation rhetoric. (You did not win the election!)
4) Offer ways to streamline and reduce costs in our crown corporations including the CBC, Canada Post, Wheat Boards.
5) Instead of chasing fluff issues and calling for resignations everytime a member of government makes a minor error in judgement, tastless jokes try to provide real debate.
6) Instead of crying about a hidden agenda try a different tune its getting real tired.
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:15:15 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:15
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Do your thing. I have dealt with the dolts from out west for a day and a half. I hope they are sweatin' just a little right about now. did you have a look at the garbage they were feeding me ??
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:47:35 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:47
westerner (suspended)
Hi again Parnel. Your new tag hasn't helped you think more clearly. Get some rest when you take your winter vacation in Florida. It must be nice to be so rich.
[updated Sun Sep 28 22:40:22 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 22:40
HC in AB
rsharp
1. As a member nation we have obligations under both NATO and the UN. That is why the Libs went to Aghganistan with the other NATO members. I recall listening to a CBC host in 2005 describing it as an "internationally sanctioned action being carried out under auspices of NATO to prevent further terrorist training in the country and to ensure that the regressive Taliban regime did not return to power". By mid 2006 the same person described it as "Stephen Harper fighting George Bush's war". Go figure.
2. Deregulation is not always a bad thing.
3. Women's rights will not be touched (political suicide). Soft drugs will not be touched (to many of us "radical right wingers" grew up at a time when we toked up a bit and some of us still do, the young offenders act needs fixed and will be fixed, and the constitution will not be changed relative to church and state (and I can never figure out what you fear about people who have strong spiritual beliefs that ground their lives).
4. The wheat board... What the hell business is it of the state relative to how producers choose to market their product... my extended family crops about 9000 acres of dryland prairie every year and I think they are much better postioned and knowledgeable to make these decisions than some leftie in downtown Toronto. The CBC will remain, but won't be treated to any operating cash increases... unless they can become a lot more objective overall. We have a lot of crown corporations that should simply evaporate.
5. Human rights tribunals have to be revamped. They are tending to towards "kangaroo courts" responsible to no one with their own social engineering objectives. FOIP needs to be made to quicker and cleaner with a higher level of disclosure. Official languages will not be touched.
6. ????
The existing systems are not perfect and need some work. Get my drift???
[updated Sun Sep 28 21:28:33 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 21:28
HC, good post. You support your points, although still disagreeable to me. Let's agree to disagree on a few things:
1. You appear to believe that Afghanistan attacked/invaded Canada
2. You appear to believe that we should continue to deregulate the business sector. Phooey on the environment, workers, consumers...
3. You're not much on women's or simple human rights and freedoms.
4. But Mr. Harper? A known extremist? I mean really extreme? No probs.
[updated Mon Sep 29 00:57:46 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 00:57
larryl
HC. Just browsing and found Sharp complimented you on your post so wanted to read it. Was curious about your wheat board comment and checked . Head office is in Winnipeg and other offices in Sask., Ab, BC.Ottawa and a couple of foreign ones so no lefties in TO have anything to do with it.It has worked in the past and can probably be improved but why throw it out completely. I don't know much about the wheat board but would think that selling ,marketing and transporting would be much easier as a group rather than individuals doing it on their own. The CPC wants to give up any federal responsibilities but some really are federal and should stay that way.
[updated Mon Sep 29 10:30:30 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 10:30
lol. larryl, I get raked over the coals so often on this site. So I try to make friends! We could us some, huh?
[updated Mon Sep 29 10:49:50 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 10:49
HC in AB
My comment was relative to Liberal/NDP parties being dominated by central canadian interests and they are the parties that insist that no changes should be made to the grain marketing system. The Wheat Board is a single desk seller for most cereal grains and only pertains to western Canada. The rest to the producers in Canada are free to sell to whoever and whereever they choose. A majority of western canadian cereal grain producers would prefer to have some freedom to market their own production outside of the board. The current government has taken some steps thru referendum etc. to change allow barley to be marketed either separately or thru the board but this was stymied by court challenges supported by the LPC and NDP. What many producers desire is to be able to market directly to export consortiums or directly to into the US market. Doesn't matter where the head office is, the LPC and NDP insist that western grain marketing remain under full federal control.
[updated Mon Sep 29 11:21:14 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 11:21
larryl
HC. I admitted that I know very little about how the wheat board works .I don't think Quebec and Ontario produce any where near the quantities that the west does but they should not get any unfair advantage . From what I understand the CPC wants to get rid of it all together and that is probably to help the huge corporations that own the huge farms. Will the family farms be forced to sell to these corporations and possibly loose out .Co-ops started in the west because it was advantages to farmers but since multi national corporations have moved in they want changes made to benefit them. Family farms will soon be a thing of the past if the Corporations Party Of Canada runs things.
[updated Mon Sep 29 14:57:55 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 14:57
HC in AB
The LPC is the Corporations Party of Canada. Note how thier financial situation has tanked since corporate donations were severely limited. The CPC war chest is made up mostly of small (<$200 donations from individual supporters). The populist base is still there and these people are individually voting with their $$$.
The CPC has never proposed getting rid of the CWB. The grass roots proposal has been to allow multliple desk marketing along side the CWB.
[updated Mon Sep 29 15:37:20 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 15:37
larryl
HC. A very strange coincidence happened to me . I went to see my doctor the other day and we chatted about politics. When I mentioned the Liberals were almost bankrupt he told me the same thing Lex mentioned in one of his posts. The reform party raised money by giving members money and the members made donations to the party. The party got a donation and the member got a tax deduction . Win win for both parties. It seems the CPC is still using the same tactic as he told me he was asked to take part in this little scheme. Both parties lost their party funding but the CPC figured out how to get donations which hardly is ethical but they are getting away with it. Maybe all donations are coming from the same pockets. Yours and mine since the government is losing taxes through this lovely little scheme. Sounds a lot like another In/Out scheme with more people taking part.
[updated Mon Sep 29 16:10:49 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 16:10
HC in AB
I'll have to have a chat with my local constituency office, I just send them a $100 a couple of times a year and take the 75% tax credit. Might save myself 50 bucks.
[updated Tue Sep 30 01:26:11 -0400 2008]
30 Sep 01:26
larryl
HC. You should definitely take advantage of the scheme if you see nothing wrong with it but it is at the very least unethical if not illegal.The question would then be why I am I paying through my taxes for the tax deduction you are receiving with this little bit of deception ? Contact your riding association
and they might give you enough to double or triple your tax deductions or even to max allowed.
[updated Tue Sep 30 08:27:40 -0400 2008]
30 Sep 08:27
westerner (suspended)
The Conservatives do not want to get rid of the CWB entirely. They want to give the farmers the right to choose whether they go it alone or join the CWB. What is wrong with choice?
[updated Mon Sep 29 16:36:20 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 16:36
larryl
westerner. nothing wrong with choice but will it make things much better for the corporate farms and bad for family farms. only time will tell.
[updated Mon Sep 29 17:28:52 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 17:28
westerner (suspended)
......and why don't Ontario and Quebec family farms want in to the CWB monopoly? Shouldn't they be yelling for coverage if it is so good for them?
[updated Mon Sep 29 18:38:25 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 18:38
larryl
Westerner. The size of those farms is so small compared to the huge ones in the west it makes the wheat board more advantages to the west. If the Ontario and Quebec farms reach a thousand acres that would be rare. The crops grown are not the same. You guys know more about this subject but might be biased against anything you see as Eastern interference. It seems to me the people get blamed for what the government does but it would be so easy to elect reps in the governing party to work for you but have refused to do that for years. When you can't beat them ,join them. The people of the west didn't even like the P.C. party and broke away to start new parties . When the CPC goes too far to right you will have to come back to the center.
[updated Mon Sep 29 20:39:01 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 20:39
westerner (suspended)
You aren't answering the question. It matter little how big the farm is. In the west all wheat and barley crops must be sold to the Wheat Board or farmers go to jail.(actually happened). So why don't eastern farmers, even if small, have to join the Wheat Board? Wouldn't be some eastern discrimination would it?
[updated Mon Sep 29 20:45:36 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 20:45
larryl
Westerner . I repeat I am not knowledgeable enough about the subject so I have to rely on you for info. How long has the Wheat board existed and was it a good thing at one time when the farmers needed to band together which is why Co-ops started in the first place . Since the number of farms has decreased but the size of each has grown it might be better now for each one to be more of a business than what they were originally. Most started out as a way to earn a living but have become big business. My grandfather had a quarter section when he came to Ontario over a hundred years ago so things have changed . If the west wants out of the wheat board they be shoud allowed but be sure it is not just for the benefit of the corporate farms.
[updated Mon Sep 29 21:00:23 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 21:00
westerner (suspended)
We would like fairness with the Canada Wheat Board. Ontario and Quebec farmers should be required to join and not be able market their wheat directly to customers. If it is a great deal for western farmers for single desk marketing then eastern farmers should also take part. Fair don't you think.
[updated Mon Sep 29 11:21:37 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 11:21
HC in AB
The more sophisticated western producers would prefer to be able to market outside of the board. My brothers who farm have post-secondary degrees in commerce and agricultural economics and are at least as well versed in the commodity markets as most Bay Street traders and have the typical independent western attitude of " get the government out of my face". I don't disagree that central and eastern Canadian farmers should have access to the CWB under a multiple desk system if that is what they would choose on an individual basis.
[updated Mon Sep 29 11:52:55 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 11:52
westerner (suspended)
I agree. However, as long as it is compulsory for western farmers why shouldn't it be compulsory for those in the east? There is a typical eastern bias here!
[updated Mon Sep 29 11:59:56 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 11:59
HC in AB
I complusory is bad for the western producer, it is bad for the rest of the country's producers. I would not be in favor of imposing a bad system on others just because it is bad for me, but they should have the personal option of opting in under a multiple desk system.
[updated Mon Sep 29 12:39:41 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 12:39
k. Wheat boards are beyond my level of comprehension. Except this. The power of numbers. And the opting out stuff. So big corporations with bucks can buy out whomever, forever, and than tell the CWB to suck eggs? Hmmm. Doesn't sound so hot to me.
[updated Mon Sep 29 13:02:20 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 13:02
Foxer
Seriously rsharp, while we may have our political disagreements the wheat board issues is one that should trancend that for canadians. Having the right to choose is important.
If the wheat board was such a fantastic deal and so necessary, and if it requires 100 percent co-operation, then why doesn't it apply to farmers in ontario and quebec? The short answer is, it isn't as important as you might think. At least not to farmers.
Wheat is an important commodity for our gov't. Selling or giving wheat away in credits and as 'aid' is something our gov't does and having a stable supply at it's fingertips is valuable. But that's not fair to the farmers.
If the wheat board can get more money or better terms for wheat, farmers will sign up for it voluntarily. If it can't, if farmers are better off selling on their own, then why have it in the first place?
If the wheat board has to earn the support of farmers, then you can bet it will actually work harder and better to earn their trust and business. That is a healthy thing.
If there is no need to force ontario and quebec into the wheat board, there's no need to force the west into it either. Let farmers choose.
[updated Mon Sep 29 13:14:45 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 13:14
I don't know the mechanics of the CWB. I confess. But, as a betting man, I can almost guarantee that whatever Harper wants to do is to the detriment of your average farmer and to the advantage of Big Agriculture. Meaning Big Business.
I don't trust Big Business these days.
[updated Mon Sep 29 13:23:11 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 13:23
Foxer
Well that's just completely nuts. It's the liberal party that has been the 'friend' of big business, and what has harper done that makes him 'friendlier' to big business than the libs were? Hell - the income trust issue hurt big business more than it hurt stock holders.
But bottom line is - if the farmers want it then it won't make any difference anyway. And if they don't want it - why should it be forced on them.
Shouldn't farmers have the right to choose if they want to sell their products that they grew on their land on their own or in a group?
[updated Mon Sep 29 13:45:46 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 13:45
Foxer, thank you for calling me "nuts." I was simply exploring and asking questions. How deferential of you.
Have you heard of the RAND formula? Something about all employees having to pay for union activity in their corporation. For their greater good.
Far as I know, it still stands, and the CWB crisis is no different.
[updated Mon Sep 29 20:18:53 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 20:18
Foxer
Well i called the idea nuts. Unless english is your second language, you should have been able to differentiate between the two.
But if it's any help whatsoever, I'm actually coming to think you're a little nuts from time to time. Its just not what i meant there. :)
ROFL - you're trying to compare unionization in the workplace to forcing all farmers everywhere to sell their goods to only one source?
It's not even remotely close to the same thing. they're not telling workers where they have to work - they can choose union or non union shops. Imagine the gov't told union people they had to sell their services to only those whom the gov't said they should. That's what they're doing to the farmers.
[updated Mon Sep 29 22:25:35 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 22:25
westerner (suspended)
What is "big" business? Overwhelmingly most corporations in Canada are small businesses that employ 10 or less employees. When is a corporation big and when is it small. Do you trust small business?
[updated Mon Sep 29 18:41:44 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 18:41
westerner (suspended)
Big Corporations can buy out whomever NOW and tell the CWB to suck eggs. The point is, if it is so much to the farmers advantage why are Ontario and Quebec farmers not lobbying to join? Why the discrimination against western farmers? Farmers should have the right to choose!
[updated Mon Sep 29 16:33:01 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 16:33
larryl
Westerner. Please read my response to HC.
[updated Mon Sep 29 14:58:29 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 14:58
I blow you out of the water but you get the highest rating? Maybe Nik needs to fix his system?
[updated Mon Sep 29 13:31:12 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 13:31
gfthompsonjr
7. I promise to amend the Constitution by adding the following words: Bush, Bushco, Neo-Con, Harper/Bush and Hidden Agenda. This will allow all those clever intellectually superior non-conservative supporters the oppurtunity to beat a dead horse well after the US administration chages in November. I suspect that you could add Mulroney to this list as well - they got fairly good mileage out of that one for 10+ years...
[updated Mon Sep 29 09:13:35 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 09:13
larryl
GF. You broke the rule of this campaign. Never mention the name Mulroney as it will remind people of the mistake we made electing him twice. The Cardinal sin you made is to put Bush /Harper together with Harper in front of Dubya. You are new so you will be forgiven but please try to follow the agenda set out in the CPC plan. Has anybody seen Lyin Brian since this campaign started? Must be hidden in one of the backrooms waiting for his appointment to the Senate.
[updated Mon Sep 29 09:37:49 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 09:37
gfthompsonjr
Thanks for cutting me some slack...much appreciated.
[updated Mon Sep 29 09:48:04 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 09:48
Mulroney would be a good addition to the Senate. It's much maligned but if you look at its work products (reports not votes), it adds much to the debate.
Mulroney has many detractors but I believe his devotion to the country is beyond reproach. k. Maybe if he had to choose between our way and the American way he might get a bit confused.
[updated Mon Sep 29 10:40:39 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 10:40
larryl
Sharp. How could a man be devoted to his country and resort to suing us. He was by far the worst P.M. in the history of this country and we will be paying till I die for his incompetence. He sold us out to the U.S. and we lose our country because of him. If he ever did get into the senate Iwould then be in favor of abolishing it.
[updated Mon Sep 29 15:18:16 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 15:18
I liked Mulroney's Irish smile and he did have a good singing voice. A baritone. Very manly, you know?
Which is a big reason Mr. Dion is taking it on the chin. His voice and language abilities. My goodness, is that how we choose PMs?
[updated Mon Sep 29 19:38:02 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 19:38
larryl
Sharp. Unfortunately it is way too important to the average voter. Harper can't sing but plays a mean piano. I think anyone singing Irish Eyes Are Smiling on St. Paddy's day would sound okay after a few pints of green ale. Even a frog like me.Ribbit.
[updated Mon Sep 29 20:47:48 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 20:47
Teehee. The ability to sing is not a prime ministerial credential. Wait. Maybe it is. Harper sings from the same song book as.... aaahh,,, why go down that road again, except to say it's the same old neo-con agenda that has failed everywhere in the world. Everywhere.
[updated Mon Sep 29 20:56:22 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 20:56
westerner (suspended)
Add to the list: I promise to eliminate the Liberal biased CBC, and the Canada Wheat Board unless all Canadian farmers are compelled to join a single desk marketing system.
[updated Mon Sep 29 11:35:43 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 11:35
I watch and listen to the CBC all the time. The regular and ad hoc pundits they hire are almost uniformly RW. Give me facts or cease with the whistle.
Now, I heard a rumour that Mike Duffy over at CTV has a soft spot for Mr. Dion.
[updated Mon Sep 29 11:41:33 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 11:41
westerner (suspended)
I am not surprise that you think the Toronto(Red) Star pundits like Susan Delacourt and Jim Travis are RW. Your own politics are so left wing I guess these people look RW to you. For those who are so far left everyone looks RW !
The CBC doesn't cover up any longer its bias toward the Liberal Party.
Hey, what about all farmers being compelled to join the Wheat Board? That would be a sound left wing policy, eh?
[updated Mon Sep 29 11:57:48 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 11:57
Lex Llewdor
Canada doesn't have a separation of church and state. God is specifically recognised as Supreme in the constitution.
I'd love for someone to run on a platform of changing that, but it's not going to happen.
[updated Mon Sep 29 12:17:28 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 12:17
I have a problem with god, whether Christian, Muslim or any other. If one existed, s/he's one hell of a f-up.
Billions of people actually pray every day to some entity that doesn't talk back. If s/he does, a rudimentary probe exposes the conversation as a sham. k. Each to his own but some of these delusional characters are actually running the world. Guys like Bush and Harper.
I can do w/o religious freaks.
[updated Mon Sep 29 12:43:59 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 12:43
Lex Llewdor
So can I. But you asked for Harper not to interfere with the separation of church and state, and that only shows how knowledgeeable you aren't, because Canada doesn't have one.
Stop trying to apply the US constitution to Canada.
And I thought the CPC was supposed to be the pro-American party.
[updated Mon Sep 29 12:48:30 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 12:48
Geez, Lex, Harper is pandering to the religious right. that's his base for Pete's sake.
Your post makes no sense. What are you trying to say
[updated Mon Sep 29 12:53:54 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 12:53
HC in AB
Don't make me laugh, Alberta has just about the lowest regular attendance at churches anywhere in the country and has the highest level of support for the CPC. Your post makes no sense to me. The CPC base is about small business/individual rights, not the religous right.
[updated Mon Sep 29 13:09:07 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 13:09
Let me get this straight. Harper isn't the candidate of Christian freaks?
[updated Mon Sep 29 13:39:32 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 13:39
HC in AB
Only if you count 37 to 39 per cent of Canadian as Christian freaks. The CPC has a pretty big tent these days.
[updated Mon Sep 29 13:47:19 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 13:47
Foxer
Well, to be fair, every liberal leader has described themselves as a devout catholic, the 'original christian freaks' (inquisition anyone? :) ). Liberal leaders and many of their followers have been very religions christians and in fact dion himself made constant references to god and his belief during a radio broadcast he did on a show with a high christian listenership. Certainly the liberals have always pushed the french christian communities towards voting for them.
This is one of the reasons the libs were almost 50 50 divided on the gay rights issues - and very bitterly at that.
Conversely, a lot of conservatives are not religions. I'm not.
Harper doesn't really represent 'christian' values - we haven't seen very many 'christian' policies.
[updated Mon Sep 29 13:53:25 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 13:53
k, unprompted, I'm sorry. Not all religious people are freaks. Far from it. They seek ways to better themselves and others.
But the religious right down south does scare me. George Bush and John McCain/Sarah Pallin are their heroes.
I believe that spells trouble.
[updated Mon Sep 29 13:52:58 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 13:52
Foxer
Well, things are very different in the states. I think the idea of the 'radical religious right' in the states has been grossly overstated in size, but without a doubt it plays more of a role there than here.
But really it's not our problem. First, i don't think mccain will win, i've said it would be obama since january and realistically i think that's still true. Second even if he did, it would just effect some american social issues. Not really something for us to worry about.
[updated Mon Sep 29 13:56:38 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 13:56
Good post, Foxer. But I think the evangelical vote down south is very worrisome. These 80 million or so people go to church every sunday. And pray to who knows what. Goodness, I though we gave up idolatry back with sun gods in Egypt and Mexico.
[updated Mon Sep 29 14:04:33 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 14:04
Foxer
Well you know - there ARE worse things than worshipping a guy who basically said how great it would be if folks were just nice to everyone for a change :)
It's important not to mock people's faith, or discourage it overly. People should be allowed to have their beliefs, regardless of how you or I might view those beliefs.
As long as people don't use their beliefs as an excuse to take action against others in violation of their rights, it's really not our business.
[updated Mon Sep 29 14:13:57 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 14:13
Thou shalt not kill. Or steal? Or covet?
Compare that to the Bush/Harper rhetoric.
[updated Mon Sep 29 14:20:17 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 14:20
Foxer and MRM, where did you go? Stumped?
[updated Mon Sep 29 14:55:18 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 14:55
Foxer
Well first off like i said, the CPC really isn't a 'christian' party per se, unlike the republican party of the states.
But just to compare as you suggest -
Harper is providing defense forces to prevent killings in afghanistan and training their own forces to help protect innocents in the future. Even Jesus said it was ok to defend yourself. "if you have a cloak, sell it and buy a sword", etc etc. Killing and self defense and defense of the weak have always been different things.
As to theft - harper is cracking down on crime very seriously. He takes serious crime very seriously.
Covet - hmm. Not sure he's done much on that front one way or another :) I supposed i could say by reducing taxes and the gst he's making it easier for everyone to buy what they want, but that's stretching it. :)_ I think 'covet' is probably outside the realms of gov't intervention. :)
[updated Mon Sep 29 15:06:50 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 15:06
HC in AB
So the electoral result might reflect the views of a vey large proportion of the population there, isn't that, in large measure, what democracy is all about?
For the record, I attend an old mainline denomination where the predominant political view of the adherents would tend to be centre-left, but my views, when discussed are respected, because I believe in such things the the right to choose, could care less about "gay marriage" as it has absolutley not impact on my life etc. etc.
[updated Mon Sep 29 14:16:03 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 14:16
MRM
rsharp - The ultra religeous right in the West are represented by the Christian Heritage Party, not the Tories. This is just another lie perpetuated by the left and used as a scare tactic in the East. Those who are not knowledgable buy into it. A case in point is you apparently.
[updated Mon Sep 29 15:33:22 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 15:33
Hey, I'm a godless creature, as are most on the left (meaning kinder, gentler types). So the Cons have the god-fearing types all to themselves.
[updated Mon Sep 29 17:57:21 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 17:57
MRM
rsharp - I think that no main stream party has a lock on any religious group. As an example I happen to have a Baptist minister living next door to me who also happens to be an ardent NDP supporter. Down the road are some Amish who tend not to vote at all. The same is true of the Huterites a few miles away.
The fact that you are an atheist, as am I, does not give you the right to demean others and most certainly does not exude the kinder, gentler image you portend to have. So your bigoted stereotypes that somehow imply that anyone who goes to church is a "freak" and therefore must be a Conservative is very insulting to many good people who have some very deep beliefs and just try to live right and be good people each day. Most do not bother others or do harm to others. In fact I have found them to very good neighbors who are always willing to lend a hand, particularly in times of trouble.
I think that if you are any kind of a man you will show some tolerance for others in our society who are different from us. You should apologize for your remarks and stop this silly line of discussion and get back to the real issues.
[updated Wed Oct 01 01:06:05 -0400 2008]
01 Oct 01:06
I said I was sorry already. I'm very down on religion but I have no qualms about individuals praying to some higher being. For most of us, especially those who run the show, it's money.
[updated Wed Oct 01 10:55:51 -0400 2008]
01 Oct 10:55
Wow, did your parents forget to give you milk and cookies when you were young?? Quite a lot of angry politics that make no sense what so ever. But in a Democracy, your entitled to your opnion.
[updated Thu Oct 02 14:38:25 -0400 2008]
02 Oct 14:38
shk
Does Canadian constitution allow formation of Green and Lib coalition government ?
[updated Sun Sep 28 14:46:52 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 14:46
50 replies so far. Join this conversationHide this conversation.
Kelvin
Not surprising result: three-point Tory jump on Sept. 24 was clearly an outlier and has passed through the sample. NDP's stalled at 19% though.
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:02:28 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:02
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Foxer
Looks more like there was a sudden jump in the undecided - possibly people saying undecided instead of cpc - but it's very very odd that this is the second weekend in a row where there's a 'sudden and improbable' reversal.
The cpc dropping 2 points would be a little unusual - there's no indication of a sudden drop last night anywhere else. But more importantly, there's no reason for the libs to go way up while the ndp doesn't.
And that's the second weekend in a row that kind of thing has happened - sudden overnight drop for the cpc, sudden unexpected rise for the libs. And there's just no indication in any other poll that there was a reversal of that nature - in fact most would say the ndp has been gaining strength not the libs.
I dunno - we'll have to wait and see if it holds for a few days, if it 'suddenly' goes back up like we saw last week then i'm afraid we'll have to conclude there's a problem with nicks methods.
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:07:23 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:07
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MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Hello boys and girls - MBAGS here !! Oh the shame of my posters to the 'Ottawa Valley Borden Line' blog that got over 200 'hits' so far. They are cryin' in their beer about now !! Geez, ONLY 9 points instead of 15 - OY VAY, what will they do !! No sleep tonight - late for work tomorrow !! LOL - NO majority !! Maybe worse !! One would hope this side of the 'Mason-Dixon' errr... Manitoba border !!
36% A SOLID weak minority and if it holds or gets worse, harper is D-E-D, dead !! LOL.
I CAN dream, but with the numbers taking a 'dive' I can't help but taking my turn to 'gloat' a little.
ALL the 'write-offs' and BANG, a 'Liberal surge'(I invented that one). It's a small one, but obviously at the cost to the cpc and harper's goonies. If we get another one like in '06 for the Libs, wow, we got a 'horse race'. Sorry to those whom I offend, but I've gotten my brains beat out about the 'Ottawa Valley Borden Line' from 1961-1973 and they're scattering for the hills out west after just long enough to take a 'poke' at me for daring to bring up the fact that Ontario saved their butts for 12 years !! LOL Cheers - MBAGS !!
BTW - If you want to 'Google' 'Ottawa valley Borden Line' (fourth one down), you Can read the truth about how many years Ontario supported Alberta's oil production at a huge cost - GRATIS !! Diefenbaker legislated it !! (PM for PCs - majority 1958-1963). I was almost 18 when the NOP took hold. I remember !! The Libs under Pearson and Trudeau let it go for Alberta until 1973 and it was cancelled, but Ontario payed, oh did we pay !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:30:44 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:30
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