Results of today’s CPAC-Nanos tracking poll show the Conservatives leading by 14 points at 39% nationally. The Liberals follow with 25%, the NDP with 19%, the Green Party at 9% and the Bloc Québécois at 8%. In Ontario and the Atlantic provinces, the gap narrows with statistical ties between the Conservatives and the Liberals. In Quebec, the Bloc now leads with 37% support. Meanwhile the leadership index sees Stephen Harper’s number dip to 85 while the numbers for Jack Layton and Stephane Dion rise to 56 and 42 respectively. On the question of who would make the country’s best Prime Minister, Stephen Harper continues to lead with 37%, followed by Jack Layton at 19%. Stéphane Dion trails with 11% support, followed by Elizabeth May and Gilles Duceppe at 4% each.
Tune in to Goldhawk Live Sunday night at 7 pm (EST) on CPAC for a discussion of our latest polling results. For more detailed information on the methodology and the statistical results visit the Nanos Research website at http://www.nanosresearch.com.
Methodology and Results
A national random telephone survey is conducted nightly by Nanos Research throughout the campaign. Each evening a new group of 400 eligible voters is interviewed. The daily tracking figures are based on a three-day rolling sample comprised of 1,200 interviews. To update the tracking, a new day of interviewing is added and the oldest day dropped. The margin of accuracy is ±2.8%, 19 times out of 20 for 1,200 random interviews.
The numbers in parenthesis denote the change from the previous Nanos Research Survey completed on September 25, 2008.
Question: If a FEDERAL election were held today, could you please rank your top two current local voting preferences? (First ranked reported)
Committed Voters - Canada (N=1007, MoE ± 3.1%, 19 times out of 20)
- Conservative Party 39 (NC)
- Liberal Party 25 (+1)
- NDP 19 (NC)
- Green Party 9% (+1)
- BQ 8% (-1)
- Undecided 16% (+1)
Question: Of the following individuals, who do you think would make the best Prime Minister? [Rotate] (N=1,201,MoE ± 2.8%, 19 times out of 20)
- Conservative leader Stephen Harper 37% (-3)
- NDP leader Jack Layton 19% (NC)
- Liberal leader Stephane Dion 11% (+1)
- Green Party leader Elizabeth May 4% (-1)
- Bloc Quebecois leader Gilles Duceppe 4% (+1)
- None of them 8% (+1)
- Unsure 17% (NC)
Question: Which of the federal leaders would you best describe as:
- The most trustworthy leader
- The most competent leader
- The leader with the best vision for Canada’s future
[Leadership Index Score - Daily roll-up of all three measures]
- Stephen Harper 85 (-24)
- Jack Layton 56 (+2)
- Stephane Dion 42 (+12)
- Elizabeth May 20 (+7)
- Gilles Duceppe 11 (-3)
What do you think?
Cheers, NJN
Remember to rate the views of others - to allow us to recognize the opinion leaders in our national conversation.
Individuals with the top ratings make it to Nik’s Leaderboard
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Volatility lessens for run up to debate or are we just waiting for the shoe to d... more
Regina Beach Boy (Saskatchewan) 27 Sep 14:44
I HAVE to bring this 'gem' to the pages of Nanos. Please 'Google' : ('Ottawa ... more
LIBERALMAN (Ontario) 27 Sep 19:57
Well - a little boring of course, but it was to be expected :) There's not going... more
Foxer (British Columbia) 27 Sep 14:44
Yes your right perhaps the HRDC could run it. Or perhaps the department of indi... more
fortescue (Ontario) 27 Sep 22:36
Lots of good questions. 1 - this is a subject of much debate - usually because... more
Foxer (British Columbia) 28 Sep 00:28
Well i'm in bc - different story - but i don't think it's fair to say alberta ha... more
Foxer (British Columbia) 28 Sep 00:42
Comments
Foxer
Well - a little boring of course, but it was to be expected :) There's not going to be much more movement till closer to the debates unless something big happens.
Harris had the ndp up, but i really don't trust harris decima. I'd guess that aside from going up a point or down a point or two there won't be much change for a few days.
[updated Sat Sep 27 14:44:22 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 14:44
4 replies so far. Join this conversationHide this conversation.
Regina Beach Boy
Volatility lessens for run up to debate or are we just waiting for the shoe to drop, listened to Dion speaking today and I'm sorry, but I just cannot understand what he's saying all too often.
[updated Sat Sep 27 14:44:27 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 14:44
14 replies so far. Join this conversationHide this conversation.
tbonepearson
CTV is full of [EDITED BY MODERATOR], just saw a piece saying the NDP was tied or doing better than the Liberals.
[updated Sat Sep 27 19:28:25 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 19:28
2 replies so far. Join this conversationHide this conversation.
LIBERALMAN
I HAVE to bring this 'gem' to the pages of Nanos. Please 'Google' :
('Ottawa Valley Borden Line' )to see that Ontario was legislated by John Diefenbaker
(PM 1958-1963 in majority) to pay approx. DOUBLE for their oil and HAD to buy it from Alberta to
help Alberta with their oil production. The 'Borden Line' was the border between Ontario and
Quebec. The 5 provinces east of that line paid much less for their 'imported' oil than Ontario did
for Alberta oil, thus subsidizing Alberta from the early 60s to the early 70s. Those cpcers who constantly say on other sites and 'boards' that Ontario is a 'welfare' province or anything in that vein, had better READ this site. It's the 4th one down on the page when you 'Google' it. THAT means, of course, that Alberta was most likely the biggest 'welfare case' in this country save Quebec for that approx. ten years. I doubt very much that few if ANY posters here know of this as they are too young. I was born in 1944 and I lived through it !! It's the TRUTH !! Alberta - welfare galore from us in Ontario and when they were asked to help out during the 'oil cirisis' of the early 70s when OPEC had shut off the taps to us, they refused, the greedy sods !! Trudeau HAD to implement the NEP just to get a greedy province 'onside' to help and they STILL got a good deal, in spite of the lies of their own MLAs. Eventually oil 'tanked' in the early 80s and Alberta went into a 'tailspin' - NOTHING anyone could do about it, but the Alberta MLAs convinced Albertans that it was Ontario's and Trudeau's fault which is completely false.
Nevertheless, Alberta gladly took the handouts and turned their backs on us when they were 'swimming' in 'the devil's brew, commonly known as oil !!
That's the final truth for Alberta. The 'urban legend's bubble is burst. Alberta's MLAs past and present are to blame for it and harper revels in it. READ the piece, especially the top of page 26 - It's ALL there !!
Cheers - LIBERALMAN
[updated Sat Sep 27 19:57:47 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 19:57
234 replies so far. Join this conversationHide this conversation.
fortescue
Is that you Stephen? I thought liberals did not subscribe to the politics of regional division. i am sure there are times when many provinces were "subsidized" by the federal government or Canadians as a whole. its what we do. hibernia was subsidized, wasn't it? Ontario has been bleased with a strong economy in the past and probable has done more subsidizing then other provinces. Maybe, maybe not I do not know for sure. but I dont care, this is a country and we all pull together. I am proud that Canada helped out Alberta in the past, thanks for pointing it out. I think it is a good thing, not a bad thing. If Ontario keeps high corporate tax rates, keeps increasing personal taxes (fair share health levy), and continues its backwards economic policies, it will become one of the slowest growth provinces in confederation. oh wait...this what is happening now. We may have the distinct pleasure of soon becoming a have not province, would that make you happy? I suspect we are on our way. God bless Alberta and all the great provinces of canada, no need for liberal division.
Cheers Canadianman
[updated Sat Sep 27 20:18:08 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 20:18
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
The NOP was legislated. Ontario had no choice and to this day you don't hear us whining. Alberta caught a bad break when oil 'tanked' in the early 80s. It was the world economy that caused it, NOT the Liberals or Ontario. Your 'veiled' sarcasm is NOT welcome. We paid for Alberta big time and they turned their backs on us.'Nuff said
LIBERALMAN
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:05:09 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:05
I don't much like official Alberta for those reasons. Their governments are particularly anti-Ottawa (aka Canada) and pro-Big Oil, no matter what.
Trudeau's NEP was a masterstroke, no matter the smear-merchants' say. Emphasis on renewable energy and conservation? Hmmm. That sounds 30 years ahead of its time.
Nationalizing an oil company? Heavens. Many large oil producing countries have exactly that to their enormous benefit but we gave up that ghost on Petrocan. Instead, we (actually Alberta) get royalties, about the lowest in the world. What suckers we are.
[updated Sat Sep 27 21:02:03 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 21:02
fortescue
lets think nationalized oil companies
Iran
Libya
Venezuela
Russia
Shall I contnue.....
Yes Trudeau was a legend in his own mind, sorry I mean ahead of his time.
[updated Sat Sep 27 21:07:29 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 21:07
Imagine, all those profits going to citizens, aka taxpayers. What an awkward thought!
[updated Sat Sep 27 21:24:43 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 21:24
fortescue
Yes, I am sure the people in those countries are really benefiting from the profits. These countries oil extraction techniques are so antiquated that there are some of the worst carbon producing operations in the world. read a little bit about venezualas tar sands project you will understand. All the great engineers that fleed when Chavez took over are working in Alberta. Canada gets Royalties, taxes, employment and believe it or not you can buy your own peice of the tar sands, new fangled capital idea called stocks. Surley you are not suggesting the liberals should nationalize the oil patch. Is this in the liberal platform, i must have missed it. Perhaps its in the communist party platform, havn't seen them in nics polling numbers. Oh by the way, who would have invested the billions needed to develop the oil production out west? The government, that would have been priceless, the same organization that could not create a flist of gun owners for less than 10 billion dollars, develop the oil sands. ROFL.
[updated Sat Sep 27 22:07:13 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 22:07
My, what a snide reply. Did I touch a chord?
Do you really believe that, in 2008, there isn't any government apparatus of any sort to operate an oil company? Do you not understand that many governments the world over own and operate the oil industry to their enormous benefit? Inefficiencies? Yeah, there are some. But, overall, more money goes to government coffers and citizens than to Big Oil. Got a problem with that?
[updated Sat Sep 27 22:17:57 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 22:17
fortescue
Yes your right perhaps the HRDC could run it. Or perhaps the department of indian affairs. The point is governments due a great job delivery and managing social program. they do not do a good job running businesses. Yes I really believe ther is no government apparatus of any sort that can operate an oil company in a democracy. State run oil companies run well because they do not have to answer to anyone. Those state owned oil companies would not be allowed to operate in Canada. The snide remarks really reflect the tone of this chain, starting out with a full frontal assault on Alberta. Got my back up a little. Sorry if I offended. i didnt think I attacked any one personally, only government run business. perhaps I waas a bit snide :). Anyway. I understand your concern about the benefits of oil exploration accruing to the nation. Remember though , resources are owned by the provinces, not the federal government. So it is not a federal issue regardeless. If Alberta nationalized the oil patch, the feds and the rest of canada would be cut out completely. They would no longer collect federal tax from the oil sands. one level of government cannot tax another. (its in the constitution). So nationalization if it were benificial, would bebefit Alberta to the detriment of the rest of the country. Not that it would ever happen, but be careful what you wish for.
[updated Sat Sep 27 22:36:55 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 22:36
larryl
Sharp. The cost of the gun registry just went up by 8 billion according to Fortescue. Somebody should tell him about the toll road built by the government that is now earning huge profits for a multi-national Spanish consortium. I guess they couldn't run that money grab erther so they had to give it up .Of course he might find out that what the Conservative government did is totally illegal since the land was expropriated for the benefit of the public not a private corporation.
[updated Sat Sep 27 22:49:06 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 22:49
fortescue
sorry underestimated
"The registry again became a political issue in the early 2000s when massive cost overruns were reported. The project which was meant to cost approximately $119 million ended up costing over 3 billion dollars to implement. Documents obtained by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation now estimate the program cost at $20 billion" wikipedia, yeah I know you can trust it or the cbc for that matter, but someone find the real cost for me. As far as the 407 goes, it was supposed to start in 1986, not until Hariis got in did it actually get built, you can complain about the cost, but at least it is there. Liberals would have never taken the political risk, even if it was the right thing to due.
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:02:25 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:02
larryl
. It is amazing how facts can be changed to suit your own agenda. The 407 was completed by the Rae government at overtime rates and given away by Harris.I don't know where you live but I worked with a man who had his property expropriated for the 407 to go through the middle of it .Since he now had two smaller pieces of land his property was devalued by millions since it was no longer prime developement land with a highway going through it.The gun registry according to the auditor generals report of 2005 had the cost at 1 billion.That would have been a ten year period. The CBC reported that 2 billion had been spent or was allocated for future expense. Of that increased cost was 750 million for a computer that the government still owns but has not been been able to make operational. Part of that cost has to be blamed on the present government . Only a fool would believe the cost has risen to 20 billion in such a short time.
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:39:47 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:39
fortescue
sorry read that on wiki pedia, didnt think its was harris but went with it. Good Rae did something useful. Wiki also says gun registry was 20 billion, again seeing it was only 2 billion makes it a much more cost effective list especially when it was supposed to cost 190 million?.
re the fool who wrote the wiki posr, who knows, i told you not to trust it.
so why are you blaming the conservative government for the 407 in your previous post, ( I believe that is the only party Rae hasnt worked for). Isnt Bob rae who illigally expropriated the land then?
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:51:06 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:51
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
I have a problem with Alberta's abject greed. If you had taken the time to read my link, you wouldn't be saying what you are, but I guess the 'indoctrination' is just too ingrained and inborn from generation to generation out there. THE NOP HAPPENED, MY FRIEND. ONTARIO PAID "BIG". We did our part for Alberta and they [EDITED BY MODERATOR]!!
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:48:28 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:48
fortescue
lol again. i am from Ontario!!! and are you changing names on us, I thought it was Liberalman that posted the google link?
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:56:05 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:56
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
I'm relatively new to nik's scene. when I've logged in now and then, and make a comment, all of a sudden I have to log in again. I've got it sorted out, I hope !! LOL
MBAGS
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:33:06 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:33
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
You're obviously too young to even have bothered to take a look at the link I gave. You have NO idea what a huge amount of money Ontario coughed up just for Alberta and like the rest of you out there with abject greed, you don't care !!
'Nuff said.
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:31:32 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:31
Lex Llewdor
I'm from Alberta, and I know Ontario paid big time to develop Alberta's resource.
But I also know that natural resources are the domain of the provinces, not the central government (in a federation, the central government isn't supposed to control much), so Ontario knew at the time that Alberta could do with its oil as it saw fit.
Alberta is not beholden to you for your past charity.
[updated Sun Sep 28 03:45:10 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 03:45
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Good grief, THATs the attitude that is SO depressing about Albertans.
They will TAKE, but NEVER give for crying out loud !!
THAT is unmitigated GREED in spades !!
gawd help us all with harper in a majority and Alberta with
a free 'rein' to plunder our environment and make billions
while the likes of Ontario are being short-changed by harper
and are in a mini-recession. Typical cpc-Albertan attitude(s).
It makes me sick that some people of this Canada of ours
can be so pathetically smug as they are. Ridiculous !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 12:19:02 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 12:19
westerner (suspended)
good comments! Support Alberta separation--please, please.
[updated Sun Sep 28 13:11:14 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 13:11
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
NOTED and summarily thrown in the trash where it blongs !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 13:19:19 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 13:19
westerner (suspended)
You hate Alberta so much it would be to your relief that it separated. Just trying to help put.
[updated Sun Sep 28 13:23:02 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 13:23
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Point taken. I would NOT want to see that. Alberta IS part of Canada and
only time can make things right. That Alberta is the way it is can 'consume'
a people. It HAS to stop eventually.
'Nuff said.
[updated Sun Sep 28 13:54:59 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 13:54
westerner (suspended)
Yes, it is consuming people. Tens of thousands of people from eastern Canada who had to come west for jobs. As Dion said "All these workers living too fast for the easy money in the north."
[updated Sun Sep 28 14:02:08 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 14:02
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
I don't know exactly where you're going with the 'comment',
'westerner', but MY reference was to young people and NOT so young -
My 'kids' are in their 40s and only NOW have they realised the error of their ways !!
They saw mom and dad do what we did and now are 'reaping'
the 'benefits' of what we 'sowed' and now at over 40 they ALL are
realising the old adage that it's amazing "how much mom and dad have learne over the
last 20 years", since, in one case, our eldest son, was exactly the age I was 20 years ago !! LOL
[updated Sun Sep 28 14:48:39 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 14:48
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
The comment is NOT appreciated. To compare third-world politics to Canada is a disgraceful way to begin a post. No one has referred to what you say and the sarcasm again is NOT welcome. Ontario paid their dues and Alberta refused to through outright greed. As Ontario was legislated to 'pay', so was Alberta - fair game !! Alberta was 'swimming in oil' and wanted to charge quadruple what it was worth due to the OPEC embargo. Trudeau, of course could NOT let that happen. Is there some kind of quasi-inbred 'Mr. Scrooge' out there ?? Ontario pays - OK for Alberta. Alberta is asked to reciprocate - no deal !! Really, really sick and greed 'incorporated'.
LIBERALMAN
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:14:06 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:14
fortescue
ROFL who are you talking to? Third world countries, we were talking about countries that nationalized there oil industries? Not sure which of these countries is third world. Did someone say there was a discount, I may have missed that. Is Alberta doing something wrong today? Are we being treated fairly? Just curious as a may be missing something.
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:38:49 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:38
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
You're telling me that besides Russia that the other 3 aren't 3rd world ??
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:34:10 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:34
MRM
MBAGS - You forget that AB also, along with ON pays the money that funds all equalization payments to the other Provinces.
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:53:31 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:53
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
My post had NOTHING to do with what you say.
What I refer to happened from 1961-1973.
What you have said is correct, but it is NOT anything to do with this discussion. READ MY LINK !! Google 'Ottawa Valley Borden Line' and read page 236
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:16:54 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:16
MRM
MBAGS - My point is that you are saying that AB is greedy and does not use their wealth to help the rest of Canada and I am saying that is not the case.
[updated Sun Sep 28 11:07:56 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 11:07
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
That is NOT what I'm saying. I said that Alberta was helped greatly by Ontario under the NOP from 1961-1973 -GRATIS !! I said that whem pm Trudeau asked them to HELP us in the 70s, Alberta refused outright - NO gratitude - that's greed incorporated. Trudeau HAD to 'invent' the NEP for the sake of the country. That Alberta had to 'share'(and it wouldn't have been for all that long)they refused - some Canadians !! They were 'up to their elbows' in oil and when the NOP was cancelled, they wanted to up their price by 4x what it was - to their OWN countrymen - again, greed incorporated !! Trudeau stepped in and said NO - and rightfully so. No matter that Alberta 'owns' all the rights to their oil, they have NO right to 'gouge' the rest of Canada just because they can(could). What's with THAT mentality if it isn't balatant greed ??
WE don't want Alberta to now 'share' their oil wealth, but when they should have, they reneged after having been 'helped' for 12 years by the rest of us, especially Ontario.
[updated Sun Sep 28 12:54:58 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 12:54
westerner (suspended)
Support Alberta Separation.
[updated Sun Sep 28 13:13:08 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 13:13
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Same reply as before - thrown in the trash where it belongs !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 13:21:23 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 13:21
westerner (suspended)
Don't be mean. Use your bitterness to support Alberta Separation from Canada. It then won't take you so long to drive to BC for a job.
[updated Sun Sep 28 13:25:04 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 13:25
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Retired, my friend. Your 'joke' falls on deaf ears. What you have said is very
unpatriotic and you have NO right to say such things in the confines
of this conversation. When the heck are Albertans going to 'wake up' and realise
that it's STILL a good idea to be part of Canada !!
Quit whining and join the country. Come on in - the water's fine, as long
as it sin't a tailings pond !! LOL
[updated Sun Sep 28 14:24:14 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 14:24
westerner (suspended)
Albertans are waking up, finally. They are seeing how much benefit there would be to separation and support is growing remarkably fast.
The continual attacks from the eastern provinces, such as yours, are helping tremendously. We need our independence to remove ourselves from the historical control of Ontario and Quebec.
[updated Sun Sep 28 18:15:03 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 18:15
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
What's your problem. You have the prime minister of Canada from your own province !!
If you DO go, as I have said, please take him with you !!
WE don't need him or anything LIKE him.
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:18:40 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:18
westerner (suspended)
Thanks again! Your vitriolic attacks help enormously in our efforts to grow separation.
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:27:33 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:27
Lex Llewdor
Stephen Harper is from Toronto. He grew up in Ontario - he went to high school in Toronto.
Stephen Harper is an Ontarian. Get your facts straight.
[updated Sun Sep 28 23:26:06 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 23:26
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
I've always been aware of that. BUUUT - harper WAS educated in university in Calgary or shall I say 'indoctrinated' in Calgary. I was born and raised in Toronto too and still live here. I have stated on this site and others both my knowledge that harper was born in Leaside, now a part of Toronto in 1959. Did you know that ?? I played hockey as a teenager not far from where he lived when he was born and later as an adult at Leaside Arena. Yes, I can also say that if harper's family hadn't gone to Calgary, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
In the west, especially Alberta, it's a known factor that the hatred of Ontario is spawned. I have absolutley NO doubt that stephen harper esq. WAS exposed to this 'cancer' and it has affected his life greatly. That he has come this far by a 'fluke' of timing is NOT of his doing. Brian Mulroney(lyin' Brian) ruined the PC party and the traitor peter mckay put the final 'nail' in the 'coffin' of the PC party by siding with harper after saying he NEVER would. He's a liar and a traitor to his party and to his country for doing that.
The reform-alliance party had gained strength before that and was and still is a danger to Canada. 'Nuff said.
[updated Mon Sep 29 00:00:18 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 00:00
MRM
MBAGS or parnel or whatever you are calling yourself these days I see that you are spewing out more bigoted comments. It really is a very distasteful personality trait. You should see someone about it before it manifests itself into something more serious.
[updated Mon Sep 29 00:33:31 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 00:33
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Like maybe becoming a member of the craps !! LOL
Don't bore me with your utter stupidity !!
[updated Mon Sep 29 00:39:02 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 00:39
MRM
MBAGS - Stupidity is making idiotic anti - western statements that border on hate literature like you routinely do. No wonder your party cannot even buy a vote west of T Bay. Not from lack of trying though. Get help. Financial is not the only kind of councillor that you need.
[updated Mon Sep 29 01:11:34 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 01:11
MRM
MBAGS – I think that you are being a little loose with the facts here. There are two sides to the story. The NEP was a program that doubled the taxes on oil. The second tax was provided to businesses in the East (all Canadians paid more at the pumps for it) to supposedly offset the high cost of oil. Those business in the West were not entitled to any of the tax revenue. Two months after the NEP was introduced the bottom fell out of world oil prices as the so called “world wide energy crisis” ended. Trudeau kept the NEP going for five more years after and by doing so made AB oil to high to sell on the world market. This not only ground development to a halt, it cost the AB economy and by extension the Canadian economy, about $100 billion dollars between 1980 and 1986. The revenues garnered from the tax was given out to those in industry that supported the LPC and in turn made large cash donations to the LPC. Sound familiar ala Adscam?
I guess one point we can agree on is that NL should not continue to receive full Equalization Payments from ON once they are a “Have” Prov and that it is a good thing that we have a PM that will stand up to that blustering bully Williams.
[updated Sun Sep 28 13:23:31 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 13:23
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Your opinion and it wasn't 5 years at all !! The Liberals getting 'kickbacks' is just another figment of your MLAs imagination back then. YOUR people 'blew' that money !!
As far as the $100Billion 'lost' - It's based on biased reports due to the fact that Alberta
would have increaed prices 4-fold had they been allowed. Trudeau,
rightfully, did NOT allow it. The NEP, by the way, 'went' south with the
repatriation of the constitution in 1982 by guess who - Pierre Trudeau, so your 'revisonist'
history is BS !!
BTW - DannyWilliams has said emphatically that when oil revenues help NFLD & LAB
to reach the break-even point, he wants NO more equalisation payments.
I guess Alberta newspapers 'audit' that kind of stuff out so that you don't know it !! LOL
[updated Sun Sep 28 14:20:25 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 14:20
I never understood why Canada has been locked into federal/provincial arrangements dating back some 150 years. Regarding resources, commerce (e.g., stock exchanges), health and education, all sorts of stuff.
Times change. The needs of the country and its people change. The greed of some and legal obstacles shouldn't preclude us from seeking a richer, fairer and greener nation.
Wait, that line is alreqady taken.
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:01:25 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:01
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
No reply from me. The poster's words have no relevance to the 'conversation'
that has 'morphed' from the subject of 'The Ottawa Valley Borden Line'.
'Nuff said.
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:32:47 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:32
MRM
MBAGS - You are so full of crap it is leaking out of your ears. You cannot re-write history no matter how hard you try. The fact that you Liberals do try is just one reason why you will all be out of a job in a few days.
The Liberals geting kickbacks is and has been easily proven by cross checking who recieved NEP funds and who donated to the LPC. When they did it again with Adscam the party was over and they had to change the rules. Now they can't get their old friends to give them anything.
The NEP was cancelled in 1986 not 82 and by Mulroney, not Trudeau and had NOTHING to do with the Constitution. You should check your facts. Not doing so just makes you look stupid and not credible.
The $100B is a Stats Canada figure.
Danny Williams has never said any such thing. If he did why does he want to continue to get full EP once he is a "have" Prov? So he can give it back to ON. What moron would believe that?
MY people in ON, where I was born and raised don't like that since it is they who have to pay it. That is why MY people will vote Tory in a few days and put YOUR people out on their asses.
[updated Sun Sep 28 16:14:52 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 16:14
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Take a 'pill'. You're one of the 'indoctrinates' and hopeless. Remind me
to NOT reply to your posts in the future !!
BYE_BYE !!
MBAGS
[updated Sun Sep 28 16:18:27 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 16:18
MRM
MBAGS - That is because you have no answer. Like most on the left when they are caught fibbing and without an answer for the nonsense that they put out they just clam up. Which is fine with me and everyone else who will be spared the nausia of having to listen to your mean spirited, factually incorrect garbage.
[updated Sun Sep 28 17:18:07 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 17:18
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Suits me. I've gotten a LOT of action on this one and barely a
'nibble' about the TRUTH I've put out about the 'Ottawa Valley Borden Line'.
Not ONE of you wants to give it more than a cursory response because
the TRUTH in it SHOWS the Alberta ingrained greed - period !!
WE help - you take.
We say you took, and nobody looks it up and tries to deny that it helped at all.
BAD thoughts. One-way politics. The FACTS are put under your
noses and you turn away. Typical latter-day cpc C.R.A.P. members.
They lead you like 'lemmings', your MLAs and the lying harper.
Over and out.
[updated Sun Sep 28 17:26:37 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 17:26
MRM
MBAGS - No one is replying on your Ottawa Borderline nonsense because it is not true. The extra tax money taken was given to a bunch of rich Bay Street businessmen, not the Prov so that they could develop the oil fields. The Prov saw very little of the money. The idea was good in principle though, even if not in practice. It was to invest so that all Canadians could prosper from the AB oil fields and reduce foreign oil dependancy as is the case today.
So your bigotted anti - western rants are not only distatseful they are also unture.
[updated Sun Sep 28 17:44:34 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 17:44
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
First of all. I'm NOT bigoted. I've never given that impression. It's just that you
westerners overreact when ANYthing is said to the opposite to what you've been
taught to think !!
As far as the rest of your post goes - PROOVE IT !!
NEVER say anything that you can't proove conclusively.
I've given conclusive facts that you can't refute except with 'bile'
that has NO backbone except in the west.
What you have stated is another 'round' of
'indoctrospeak' from Alberta. PROOVE IT or
shut up !! If you PROOVE it, I WILL apologize for
my comments. I'm a man of my word - always, and
that's more than I can say for harper or flaherty.
harper(almost used a capial for him - OY!! - LOL) has
said ALL the words you guys WANT to hear and that's
lies about Ontario and the carrying on of the 'myth'
so be it - we inOntario can do nothing about it except
eventually see to it that he's GONE from the face of
our parliament sooner rather than later !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 17:57:29 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 17:57
MRM has difficulties with the truth sometimes. Actually, quite often. He's blinded by the light.
Maybe, it's because the the extreme RW has never made it to the fore in Canada, and here's there chance. John D., Joe C. and Brian M. were all Red Tories. Steve H. is the first real RW ideologue to ever have a chance up here. And it's a good chance.
I presume the rest of us will the light in time. Harper is a mean, manipulative, secretive and otherwise scary man. My children would never forgive me if I didn't fight this Neanderthal with every ounce of my body.
[updated Sun Sep 28 18:13:50 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 18:13
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Wow - A 'light' from the side of common sense(not mike harris
gawd forbid). That you have found your 'niche' in the right
place is a LOT better than the clamoring I've heard from
the 'dark side'. You mention your kids. I don't know how old
theyare, but they can't be too young if you mention them in
this element.
Mine are 38,41,42,44 yrs old - not political like I am.
Thanks for a breath of fresh air !! MBAGS
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:15:43 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:15
MRM
rsharp - You will have all the truth you need on Oct 14th!
[updated Tue Sep 30 08:20:50 -0400 2008]
30 Sep 08:20
larryl
mbags. I find it really funny you are arguing with a former easterner about another former easterner.
[updated Sun Sep 28 18:29:13 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 18:29
Mine are 22 and 26. And they are my constant delight. If I spent less time on this (and a few other) bloody websites(s), I'd be a better father!!! lol
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:36:21 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:36
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
The word 'former' is the key. Obviously the 'cancer' of the mind out there is 'infectious'. Remind me to be sure I turn south at Detroit when I get to the border to go to Naples, Florida for the winter. I might make a wrong turn and end up in Calgary and end up on a 'cross' somewhere and it wouldn't be in a church !! LOL
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:36:41 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:36
MRM
MBAGS - Three things,
First you have not PROVEN anything. If you have then we all missed it because it is nowhere to be found on this blog?
Second - In the course of telling us that you are not a bigot you made at least three anti western remarks. You also continue to state falsehoods and since the definition of a bigot is:
“A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own. Bigot is often used as a pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices even when these views are challenged or proven to be false.” (Source – Oxford Concise Dictionary)
This would make you a PROVEN bigot.
Lastly, I gave you PROOF in a post at 16:14:52 EDT PROVING that you were wrong. To which you had no answer.
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:17:06 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:17
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Just giving it back 'in kind'. Oh BTW - New CAPC-NANOS POLL FOR Sept. 27th !!
Listen up now:
cpc- 36%
Lib - 27%
Ndp- 19%
Grn- 9%
BQ - 9%
Just thought you would like to keep up to the times !! LOL
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:34:41 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:34
westerner (suspended)
Whats that? Only a nine point spread! Watch the rolling numbers tomorrow!
[updated Sun Sep 28 21:08:53 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 21:08
MRM
Excellent, a nine point lead going into the debates. How sweet is that?
[updated Mon Sep 29 08:55:33 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 08:55
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
It's a lot better than 14 !! Hopefully it will fall further. As a Liberal I have to feel that way. Anything that may encourage others to vote for the Liberals or even NOT for the craps is OK by me.
[updated Mon Sep 29 09:34:07 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 09:34
MRM
Make that 10 points.
[updated Tue Sep 30 00:03:43 -0400 2008]
30 Sep 00:03
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
So it says !! harper STILL at 36% - LOL !!
[updated Tue Sep 30 00:37:24 -0400 2008]
30 Sep 00:37
MRM
MBAGS - The fact that you Liberals are LOL over being only 10 points behind is telling about just how deeply in trouble your party is. After the debates the Liberal slide will be even deeper. LOL!!!
[updated Tue Sep 30 08:23:26 -0400 2008]
30 Sep 08:23
TPQ (suspended for inappropriate comments)
mbags it is coming to that time in the campaign when the NDP supporters are starting to realize that voting for Jack LAYTON will weaken their chances of defeating Harper. The parties of the center left in Canada now have well over 50% of the voters and need to coalesce around a strong Liberal party to send Harper to his political grave. I saw this happening last night in my own riding which was a tight Liberal win in 2006 and looks like a much bigger win this time due to the protest votes disappearing. This is a riding that has been heavily targeted by the cons with mailings from every cons MP in the country.
The Liberals are the grand coalition party of Canada and progressive forces in the country should not let their huge majority get taken over by a party that only can get support of around 35% of the population. You have seen the right wing lunkheads here and should get the word out about the devious, sneaky and very poor economically managed government we now get.
The question is, do you want four years of Stephen Harpercrite?....65% do not and should understand that Jack Layton helped elect Harper in the first place and is now trying to crowd his way to the center and cannot get past his traditional level of support. Get that message out and we will defeat Harper big time.
[updated Wed Oct 01 03:32:01 -0400 2008]
01 Oct 03:32
MRM
MBAGS - Make that 11 points.
[updated Wed Oct 01 01:34:36 -0400 2008]
01 Oct 01:34
westerner (suspended)
You continue to show extreme bigotry when you discuss Alberta and the "west". Denying it is foolish as people just have to read your blogs.
[updated Sun Sep 28 21:04:24 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 21:04
westerner (suspended)
The National Energy Program was not discontinued until Mulroney took office!
[updated Sun Sep 28 18:17:39 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 18:17
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
That was 1984 and who cares anyway !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:20:27 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:20
westerner (suspended)
We all care because you were wrong, as usual.
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:28:21 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:28
MRM
westerner - Funny how he doesn't care what happened in 84 but keeps blathering on about some Ottawa border nonsense from the 60's as if anyone even cares about that? The truth is he doesn't care about the NEP now because he was caught being wrong so now it doesn't matter. It sure mattered to him when he was trying to make his anti-western bigoted remarks sound valid.
[updated Tue Sep 30 00:09:27 -0400 2008]
30 Sep 00:09
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
You're a 'joke' and need NO attention. You probably get enough laughs on your own for being so juvenile.
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:44:28 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:44
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
You're a 'joke' and need NO attention. You probably get enough laughs on your own for being so juvenile.
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:45:00 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:45
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
You're a 'joke' and need NO attention. You probably get enough laughs on your own for being so juvenile.
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:49:18 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:49
fortescue
a comment so nice you said it thrice. When you can respond to the facts lets attack the person. isnt this a debate. repond, tell me i am wrong, i read your post and i learned. I hope you learned from mine. dont resort to calling me names. That just lets me win.
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:54:24 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:54
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
The 'triple' occurred by mistake. What you said WAS sarcasm and a joke - 'nuff said !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:18:14 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:18
MRM
Sounds like MBAGS is having a little tantrum!
[updated Tue Sep 30 00:10:12 -0400 2008]
30 Sep 00:10
Zab
Actually why not talk about how many cents on the dollar Norway or Saudi Arabia make? No wait, ask yourself how many cents on the dollar the US makes.
You will find that the US, Saudi and Norway make a lot more money on their oil than Alberta. With Petrocan the Canadian taxpayer actually got in on the windfall.
Danny Williams got it right when he made sure he got an equity stake. Sure, it doesn't match most countries around the world- but he has looked out for his own.
[updated Sun Sep 28 12:11:21 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 12:11
Hey Zab, welcome to the calm. If you can keep it. Williams did indeed stake a claim for his people and we need more of that.
The Alberta Tories continue to give away the store to foreigners!!! I can't figure their motives out for a minute, except greed or outrageous stupidity. What else could it be?
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:40:10 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:40
MRM
rsharp & Zab - First of all Williams purchased that stake at market rates with EP money he received from ON much to the displeasure of Mr. McGuinty. Secondly then you both agree then that ON should continue the full EP even after NL becomes a so called "Have" Prov?
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:50:51 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:50
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
The whole thing could have been good for Canada but with Alberta being on dry land, they own the 'devil's brew' in the tarsands and wherever the free-flowing oil is. I wonder what would have happened if Alberta had originally bought in to a 'plan' that would have benefitted them greatly along with the rest of Canada and maybe, just maybe they may have been somewhat protected from what happened in the early 80s ?? with the 'right stuff' Canada could have been dependent on only 'Canada' for its oil. Now it's going to the states from Alberta, What a shame. I can't undertand the logic in a country that has LOTS of oil and most everyone has to buy it from offshore !! Alberta has the right to do what they have done, but I disagree with it. They could have had it quite well for themselves and been a full 'partner' in Canada too !! Heck, they still complain about 'equalisation' as if they should be exempt or something because way back in the 70s there was a separation movement brewing because they were making a bundle yet they wanted it all and to heck with the rest of Canada and it became apparent that the feds were gonna move in for the sake of the rest of Canada. They did - NEP eventually - it did hurt some, but NOT as much as is reported by Albertans. A LOT of it was just the world markets for oil crashing. I'll never get it. I'm Canadian first and an Ontarian second - always !! In good times, Albertans are quiet, per se, but as soon as anyone even 'thinks' about their oil, they get their backs up. They're swimming in the stuff and with oil as high as it is, there's no end to the prosperity, while others in our country suffer(even Ontario now and Albertans are 'crowing;' about it !!). You should see the 'garbage' on CBCNews.ca blogs. They're happy as all heck that our auto industry is on hard times now - go figure !! MBAGS
[updated Sun Sep 28 02:42:13 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 02:42
Foxer
Liberalman - all this says is that alberta was forced to sell their oil to people at a discount rate to buy votes east of ontario.
Not much of a 'subsidy'. Not to mention the royalties paid to ottawa.
I think the NEP pretty much wiped out any gains they might have got.
Oh - and you might want to google 'crow rate'. Ontario took more from the west than it ever gave in any kind of benefit. Sorry bud.
[updated Sat Sep 27 22:41:24 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 22:41
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Trudeau changed those rates in Alberta's favour, bud !! The oil that was coming to Ontario was already coming. That Diefenbaker legislated that Ontario pay MORE than the world rate for Alberta's oil WAS to subsidize Alberta. They coudn't afford to go on their own. Were you even born when this was going on ?? I was almost 18 years old when it started and almost 29 when the NOP was cancelled. Alberta prospered immensly and no one complained until Trudeau came calling for help and reciprocation. Your 'facts' are wrong. How can Ontario with it's large population pay so much for 12 years and NOT have paid 1000 times a 'king's ransom' in direct favour of Alberta ?? You, sir, are misinformed and I guess I'm suffering the 3 hr time difference
from the west(2hrs in Aberta). BTW - There was NO 'discount' as Ontario paid MORE than the
world set price of oil and almost double that of the 5 eastern provinces. NO subsidy or money went to Ottawa, my son. The 'money' ALL wnet to Alberta, every penny !! NO royalties existed either for Ottawa or for alberta. They had No money to go it alone. Ontario supplied it !! Geez, which 'link' were YOU reading. Mind you the utter greed and bias is 'stinking' right through my PC !!
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:27:29 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:27
Foxer
rather than make you address the same points twice - i'll reply under larryls' thread. :)
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:39:08 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:39
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
You haven't a clue what you're talking about. Again another one too young to know the immense amount of money that was transferred directly from Ontario to Alberta from 1961-1973. I was around to see it and know it and 'smell' it all the way here in Ontario ! Diefenbaker 'picked our pockets' for his own gain(it did him NO good,as usual PC govt's self-destructed as his did). The NEP didn't take what Alberta couldn't afford. The figures 'used' by biased 'calculations' of what Alberta supposedly 'lost' due to the NEP are GREATLY exaggerated as they are based on what Alberta would have gotten if they had been allowed to quadruple the cost of oil to their own countrymen. They made a fair 'share' under the NEP, there's NO doubt about that. It's amazing what abject greed can do to people !! THEY get help for 12 years and don't even 'blink' as if they were entitled. They get asked to help and Trudeau gets the door 'slammed' in his face,. They gave him No choice. Reciprocation was fair and the NEP so-called 'losses' are greatly magnified for effect, but are wrong-minded. The fact that oil prices plunged in the early 80s was the fault of world forces and NOT the Liberals, Trudeau OR Ontario.
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:42:20 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:42
fortescue
just curious, did someone blame falling oil prices on libs? never saw that in thread.
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:51:18 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:51
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
No doubt, fortescue(the sarcasm is obvious). Albertans then and now, for some ridiculous reason, after having 'fed' on Ontario, DID blame Ontario for theri demise when prices 'tanked'. They do it all the time. It's NO different now, but they 'crow' because they can, for now. Now remember, these are the same people who would have charged 4 times the price they were under the NOP some time after the NOP was cancelled !! If that's NOT greed, I don't know what is !! Trudeau HAD to stop them(I repeat myself), but my position is defendable. The NOP cost us a LOT. alberta's greed almost cost them everything in the early 80s until Lougheed made a 'modified' NEP deal with Trudeau that helped some. Neither of those two could help the catastrphic drop in oil prices, but Alberta blamed us anyway, because their MLAs didn't take care of the money they had before !! They were lied to by their own gov't !! They went broke due to bad management of their own money and the 'tanking' of oil prices. The east had nothing to do with it.
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:02:43 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:02
westerner (suspended)
Such unnecessary bigotry! Does it ever stop.
[updated Sun Sep 28 21:10:57 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 21:10
Foxer
Mbags - i'm old enough to remember a lot of things - young enough not to have dementia about it :)
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:03:05 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:03
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
foxer - First, go fishing in a tailings pond and catch a big one, will you !! Now even if it's deformed, that's OK because your own gov't says it's OK for deformed fish to live in such a place. Then, fillet it and fry it up and eat it. It should be good for your health. It's gotta be, because harper says it is !! LOL
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:12:18 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:12
Foxer
I don't recall harper saying that :) And the fish in my lakes are pretty good eating and were long before harper showed up :D
[updated Sun Sep 28 01:09:19 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 01:09
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
I get the 'comedy relief' 'foxer', but it's a known fact that there are deformed fish due to the utter rampant pollution and the tailings ponds are huge and dangerously close to overflowing with gawd knows what kind of effluent. They haven't even got a 'name' for the stuff yet. It's terrifying stuff !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 01:19:33 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 01:19
Foxer
Well it wouldn't surprise me, but i'd have to argue that the problem probably predates harper's 3 year minority term :) And realistically, i guess that's the price alberta is willing to pay for their success. And in all seriousness that's really their choice, not ours. They'll have to live with it and decide if the benefit was worth it.
One thing that WILL make a difference in bc and i'm sure alberta is the extra fines harper's talking about for environmental polluters. We find truck batteries dumped in lakes and stuff, but even if you report the company that did it - it's cheaper for them to pay the fine than to haul the stuff out. But that won't be the case anymore - and that gives a lot more teeth to the laws.
[updated Sun Sep 28 01:42:49 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 01:42
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
harper's for 'cap and trade' which does make it better to pay the fines and to keep right on polluting !! He's NEVER going to 'beat on' the tarsands'. You've got to be kidding me !! He isn't going to 'bite the hand that feeds him' for crying out loud !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 01:47:26 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 01:47
Foxer
Well the same thing is true of a carbon tax - which is a write off after all :)
I don't know that i said he was going to 'beat on the tarsands'. I think he'll look at reducing their emissions, and alberta is starting to take it seriously as well. I was more thinking tho of his new fines for polluters who break our existing rules when i made those comments.
[updated Sun Sep 28 03:53:38 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 03:53
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
I'll believe it when I see it. I assume your again referring to harper. He's known to lie and just do the opposite when elected(income trusts come to mind - I've got a few friends who are 'up in arms' against him now - formerly REAL PC voters - can't stand harper for that alone !!
harper will do for what is best for harper, 'big oil' and big business and to heck with the likes of Ontario(flaherty is on record as saying to NOT invest in Ontario). What a pathetic way to try to run a country - favour one section of it to the demise of the rest - prime minister - NOT - 'king' - He acts like one and his 'domain' is the west and the rest of us will suffer. If harper does right by Ontario, there will be a 'snowball fight' in hell !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 12:34:27 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 12:34
Foxer
Income trusts weren't a lie. People throw that word around way too easy these days.
He made a promise. The liberals and ndp made the same promise. I'm quite sure he believed it when he made it.
Then he gets in and the facts turn out to be different than he thought.
So he broke his promise. So did the libs and ndp who voted for it. But as the person in power, it was his responsibility.
That's serious. And he should have to account for that choice.
But it's not the same as a lie.
As to 'big oil' and the like - that's the libs. The liberals have always been the 'big business' party. That's why now that big business can't donate to them, they can't raise money. Didnt' you ever wonder where they got their money from, and why they're broke now?
And no offense - but the fact is that the feds for generations favoured ontario and quebec and ignored the others as a method of staying in power. That's not ontario's fault, so don't get me wrong, but that's just the truth.
If ontario wants harper to 'do right' by them, they best send a fair number of CPC reps to make sure that happens. Which looks like exactly what's going to happen, so you should do just fine.
[updated Sun Sep 28 14:00:36 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 14:00
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
You got 41 from us the last time. Isn't that enough. It put harper into power !!(minority thank goodness) !! BTW - harper has stated in NO uncertain terms
that the 'income trust' tax wil kick in at about 33% in 2011, no
holds barred !! Dion wants to tax them at 10% NOW and keep it down to help the seniors who got 'busted' by harper's actions. I know a few and they're 'fuming' !!
I know one who lost $100Gs, outright !! He's 74 and seriously POd !
He's got a right to be !! Most of my pals are conservatives(not me),
but they agree with one thing - HARPER HAS A 'NERVE' CALLING HIMSELF
AND HIS PARTY 'CONSERVATIVE' !! He's ANYTHING but !
These pals of mine are old PCs and can't stand harper and even moreso
now and they have a good reason for it !!
something could have been worked out, but harper first(yes) lied on
purpose and now will NOT entertain ANY compromise. Dion has said
he will find a way and has started to already. harper IS inflexible,
but he's got ALL of you in the 'palm of his hand' strictly due to your 'hate'
of Ontario. Gawdalmighty, what a way to 'dupe' people into believeing lies and half-truths !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 14:37:53 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 14:37
Foxer
It's a good start :)
And income trusts will be taxable in 2011. That is true.
Sorry if your buddies don't want to pay their fair share of tax. i can understand why - but unfortunately they're going to have to pay their fair share.
As to dion - i'll remind you this was the guy who was in charge of kyoto when emissions went up 20 percent.
As to your buddy who lost 100 g's, he's an idiot if he had that much in the stock market - which is what income trusts are. Your chances of losing money are pretty good there. You never put in more than you can afford to lose.
But people get greedy and dumb and then they get hurt. That's been happening since long before income trusts sadly.
Your pals sound a little confused over what 'conservative' means.
And it's dishonest to say he 'lied on purpose'. It completely discredits your entire argument - if you can't be honest about that what else are you being dishonest about?
Fact is, they posted their numbers explaining why things were different than they expected and ALL THE OTHER PARTIES AGREED.
Don't forget - dion voted for that. It's not like harper pushed it thru on his own - all the parties realized we couldn't do it.
And if you're suggesting that somehow, if i think harper is the best choice my only reason is a 'hatred of ontario' - then you need to grow up. That's a stupid thing to say. Fact is anyone who actually LOOKS and THINKS about dion's plan will realize it's a nightmare.
Anyone who looks at dion and his track record would have grave reservations about his ability to successfully make ANY plan happen.
Ontario's problems are a result of Ontario's decisions. If you want to improve, kick your premier out and get a decent one. It's not my fault, it's not harper's fault. Its YOUR fault. Own it and fix it. BC's lumber industry crashed, we dealt with it. Your manufacturing industry is down - deal with it.
And tell your buddies to invest their money a little more wisely. Diversity - it's not just for breakfast anymore.
[updated Sun Sep 28 14:57:59 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 14:57
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
MY 'BUDDIE', WHO ISN'T POOR FOR SURE, PUT THAT
100Gs INTO HIS INCOME TRUST FUND IN ADDITION TO WHAT
HE HAD BECAUSE HE BELIEVED HARPER AND EVEN
VOTED FOR THE LIAR HARPER !!
HE "HAS" A RIGHT TO COMPLAIN !!
geez - I know that the 'tax' doesn't kick in until
2011, but the stocks went down instantly and most
haven't recovered much. It cost a few hundred thousand
maybe ove a million seniors a pile of money, NEVER to
be recouped because harper and flaherty 'lied' to get more
votes - period !!
I don't know why you brought Dion and Kyoto into this blog,
but I'll 'stick to my guns' The Liberals 'hinted' at taxing
'income trusts', but backed off. The cpc, with that in hand
during the election campaign sowore up and down that
they wouldn't tax them !! It WAS an 'election' issue that they
falsely 'milked' down to the 'dry teat' and countless seniors
voted for the 'liars' just because of that. harper and flaherty
could have 'adjusted' what eventually came out - but 'no dice'.
harper got his votes and, again, 'p' on the seniors !! They got
'shafted' and he doesn't give a 'fiddler's f'. THATs the way this 'devil' \harper operates and that you fools back him is beyond me.
He's the greatest subject of a 'snake oil salesman' this country
of ours has EVER seen and the sooner we give him some of his
'own snake oil medicine', the better !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:28:24 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:28
Foxer
If your buddy put 100 grand into an income trust and lost everything, it wasn't harpers fault. He picked a bad fund. Most of them have regained most of what they 'lost' during that annoucement.
And if your buddy put money into the stock market based on the idea it was going to be tax free - rather than its' quality as an investment - then he's a bad investor.
He doesn't have much of a right to complain - it's the stock market and if he doesn't GET that he shouldn't be investing.
And most have recovered 'much' - and they're down more due to the eocnomy than anything else. If they were a good stock before, they're a good stock now. But of course all stocks are down.
And if you think they 'lied' to get votes - you're very naive.
Kyoto is an example of liberals 'promising' something and failing to deliver - and that was dion. Now you take his promises as verbatum. That's why it came up.
The liberals promised up and down they wouldn't tax it. That's what they got in crap for - remember, the whole rcmp investigation about their annoucements? It's entirely wrong to suggest they even HINTED they'd tax it.
But they voted to tax it. Why? Turns out things were different than people expected and there was a problem.
And harper actually offered seniors income splitting to make it up to them financially. If you do a little math, most actually save as much or more tax money doing that than they did from income trusts.
I notice you failed to mention that :)
Harper will win this election. That's the way it is. And canada will be FAR better for it. We dont need any more liberal lies and scams.
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:39:38 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:39
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
'foxer' - The guy's OK. He could afford the 'hit' as I could in my
'old age' and prudent budgeting for years to get to where
I am with my wife.
He WAS NOT in a 'bad fund'. He wa in several and
the accumulative effect cost him the 100 Gs.
He's well of, but anything but rich. he's 10 years older than
I am and made much more money than I did before he retired.
He'll NEVER get that money bvack and it' s due to harper's
lies - period. Had my buddy known what was to happen, he would have been 'out'
in a nanosecond. He trusted the liar harper and it cost him
big. All seniors who lost ANYTHING will NOT be
voting for the 'liar' harper and with Dion having an eventual
'alternative' that is MUCH less punitive, maybe it will
work. harper won't even consider it the dolt !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 16:07:55 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 16:07
Foxer
Well if it cost him 100 g - he must have had a lot more than 100 g in them. Especially if it's still cost him that much.
I didn't mean to suggest he wasn't a good guy btw- if it came across that way i'll appologize. I was strictly refering to this financial decision, not the man in general.
If he didn't do something insane like sell the stock - it'll continue to go back up as the economy improves.
Remember - most people with money in the markets right now have lost huge dollars that they'll never get back. And it has nothing to do with income trusts. There are no stocks that haven't taken some hits.
Again - childish to say it's a lie. Economic conditions turned out to be different than what was expected.
And that's what happens in the stock market. Sorry for his loss, i'm sure not happy about it, but that's what happens in the stock market.
I'm sure nobody would have bought equity shares in the states if they'd known what was going to happen either. Tough - that's the way the wind blows.
Dion's alternative won't make any difference whatsoever to whether or not he gets his money back. that will depend on how well the businesses do. You seem to think the value is based on it's tax status and it's not. There's lots of ways to save tax money and dividends are taxed at a VERY low rate anyway. It's not like income.
And to call it punative is silly - obviously harper's not trying to 'punish' anyone.
Again - dion voted against income trusts right beside harper. And his 'compromise' won't do a thing for your buddy.
Harper's income splitting won't either if he's not married, but if he IS married chances are he's actually better off tax wise.
[updated Sun Sep 28 16:48:24 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 16:48
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
A little 'softer' are we. 'foxer' ??
Income splitting is only for CPP - peanuts !!
How good would it be for families with such a discrepancy
between incomes of spouses if ALL income
could be 'split' like in the states(I'll give the USA that
much).
BTW - One third of the income from an investment is NOT 'punishing' when it was
supposed to be ZERO ?? Give me a break.
At least Dion's 10% IS a break and at least a try to help seniors who have lost
gobs of money whether you believe it or not.
where I 'hang out', there's more sniors than not and you WOULD NOT
be welome at OUR table at all, believe me.
i don't know where you get this garbage that the 'funds'
are coming back becasue most of them aren't and the
ones that may be have been made into regular
funds and are gainign somewhat, but the original 'loss'
is a complete 'loss'. The funds went down and now will
be taxed at 1/3rd in 2011 - THAT'S A LOSS, MY FRIEND,
PURE AND SIMPLE. I guess they don't teach
arithmatic from the same 'books' out there as here !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 16:59:03 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 16:59
Foxer
No - income splitting has ALWAYS been there for cpp. This is new. It allows people over 65 to split all their income.
In many cases one partner or another has most of the income. this allows them to spread it between each other and 'mix and match' to get the best income advantage.
If you were unaware of this and you're close to that age (think you mentioned you were a pensioner) then check into it.
It would be wonderful if all income could be split. And in fact for a lot of people they do - it's not hard if you play a few legal tax games, but most dont' bother.
However - we couldn't afford it. It would reduce the income tax by many many billions.
If someone takes the time to learn a little tho they can do it.
I also know how to get your mortgage interest as a tax write off :)
And no - one third of the income isn't 'punishing'. It's tax. Tax isn't punitive. It's just tax. And it's not '33' percent anymore. Now there's a formula - but most people in canada who are earning dividends as their main income would have to earn over 66 thousand dollars in dividends before they paid even one nickel in tax. It's much lower than 33 percent for most people these days.
The rules changed in 2006.
Dion's 10 percent won't make any difference whatsoever to those seniors. Unless they're very very wealthy. That's why he can afford to offer it.
Sorry to hear you hang with folks who're so closed minded like that. Mind you i know some tables in alberta where you wouldn't do well either. Guess maybe some ontarians have more in common with albertans than they thought :)
There is no such thing as 'original loss'. These are stocks. They will go up and down in relation to the value of the company.
if funds are down - the company is only worht that much right now. If times get better it'll go up if they don't they'll go down. If they were higher than they were worth in the past then that was based on speculation - and if you get hurt speculating you really have no one to blame but yourself. Seniors have no business speculating like that with their retirement savings.
However - let me remind you something. The value of the stock goes up and down based on the market - but the DIVIDENDS wouldn't have been affected at all.
So if their income is ACTUALLY down - that means the company has run into trouble. Its not absolutely nothing to do with income trusts or not income trusts. Dividends are based on what the company earns not the taxible status of it's stock.
If you're investing your retirement income - it should be in solid companies paying good dividends. And if you did, the dividends weren't affected by any ups or downs of the stock. If dividends are down it's because of the economy and the company, not the CPC.
They definately don't seem to teach math from the same books out your way. Here - 1 plus 1 = 2. Must be that 'liberal math' you're using, where 2 million actually equals 1 billion :)
[updated Sun Sep 28 18:54:28 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 18:54
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Tell me something I don't know !! I did my inlaw's taxes for years. One takes the maximum in the first bracket and the other takes the rest. They pay NO tax, possibly and the balance is at the top end of the first bracket for the highest earner(income wise-no job). THATs the old-fshioned 'splitting' and has been around for years. I was referring to the USA where ALL spouses can 'split' ALL of their income at ANY age !! Now did you get that or shall I repeat myself !!
What with NRTCs for drugs and what not at my inlaw's ages when I did theirs, they paid nothing and got back Ontario Credits based on their 'net' income and paying property tax and credits for just being 'old'.
NOW you've found out that BAGS is also a tax expert from doing taxes for family and friends for many, many years.
Next !! Oh and BTW - The income trust tax is 1/3rd almost - no gimmes !! And also BTW - 'Income splitting' for CPP was NOT there before !! Each CPP recipient HAD to declare that as their income. NOW each one has to apply for the 'split' because if they were married or 'spoused' before, they can't use that in their calculation. Now THATs a 'gotcha - look it up and learn young fella !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:10:21 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:10
Foxer
Well what i was pointing out is that now seniors can split ALL income, not just cpp or pensions.
That's new. Not old.
And i addressed the 'american' model. Techincally canadians can as well but most don't, and if they all did we couldn't afford it :)
Pay attention if you're going to respond to what i write.
Sadly, one of the great truths is that canadians pay far more tax than required by law for the most part.
You don't sound like much of an expert to me if you didn't realize anyone can split income now and many do :) And if you didn't know about the recent changes allowing seniors to split all incomes. :) But - as someone who at least has done taxes before you can see where that would save a lot of money for a lot of seniors.
Sigh. Income splitting for cpp has always been there. You just had to fill out the form.
It pains me to point out you are incorrect so badly - but the new rules don't apply to cpp, the old rules do. Under the old rules you could split up to 50 pecent. As you can see in this here:
http://www.erikapenner.ca/pdf/TEINSSE.pdf
So much for your 'expertise'. You can call and appologize to your inlaws later :)
no - income trust revenues are not 1/3. Sigh. Your expertise is not getting any better. The rules changed in 2006.
No wonder you guys are getting less benefits from the feds - that ontario math is pretty messed up :)
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:49:39 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:49
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
I told you my inlaws were dead, yet you say this - bad taste !! yes, I was aware of the CPP 'split' being allowed in 2006, I told you so - that's RECENT is it not ??
BTW - Canadians under the age of 65 can only 'split' their CPP and NOT
their entire incomes. My yougest son complains all the time. he makes
$70 Gs and his wife is a stay-at-home mom making zilch. She CANNOT
claim half of his income for herself. I don't know where you got it from but you're wrong.
People under 65 and not working and collecting CPP CAN 'split' but have to fill out the forms for entitlement. As I have said, if one has been married before or spoused before, that time does not apply to any present relationships - look it up !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 21:03:25 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 21:03
Foxer
You never mentioned your inlaws were dead bags.
The cpp was not changed in 2006. That was my point - it was unaffected by the changes as it clearly says in page two of that doc i sent you.
the law predates 2006. That was my point. It didn't change as you claim, it was always that way.
And yes - after 60 canadians can split all kinds of pensions and incomes - which is what the 'new' rules are. They could always split cpp.
Under 60 you absolutely can split incomes. It takes a little more work but it's not hard to do.
Your kid could do it with a bit of work. it's not hard. Or at least a good hunk of it, really there's no point beyond about 27,700 in his case if he only earns 70 k. I know many who do it - it's perfectly legal.
But sadly, most canadians don't know how to legally take advantage of all their rights anyway.
tell your kid to find a good accountant and talk to him about it. Folks shouldn't pay more tax than they need to.
Seems very odd tho - did you not read what i sent you? Yeash, you're as bad as larryl :)
[updated Sun Sep 28 21:37:08 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 21:37
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
I would be glad to be able to tell my yougest son how to 'move' $27,700 over to his wife. he also has two kids, 18 and 10. You tell me what to do and I would be grateful and we can leave the politics out of it. It would save him a lot of taxes.
[updated Sun Sep 28 22:32:22 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 22:32
Foxer
The very best thing to do is sit down with a good accountant. there's a few ways to do it and choosing the best and easiest for him requires a professional that's well versed in ontario regs. PM me if you'd like some direction but you do want to take it to an accountant (too much to post here.)
[updated Mon Sep 29 00:55:46 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 00:55
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
'foxer' Thanks for the reply. Whatever you can give me I can try to deal with. If an accountant is worth it, then maybe it can be arranged. Thanks - Mark
[updated Mon Sep 29 01:00:24 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 01:00
Foxer
Some of the questions i'd have to ask to give you even a 'direction' to move in would certainly be too private for an open board. Feel free to pm me and i'll see if i can give you some direction to pass on for him and his accountant. Options change based on the nature of his job, what kind of employee he is (or if he owns a business) etc.
[updated Mon Sep 29 02:18:29 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 02:18
westerner (suspended)
You claim to be well informed. How could you possible not know that all pension income could be split. Did you miss out on that last year? Great policy for seniors from Harper!!
[updated Sun Sep 28 21:18:29 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 21:18
TPQ (suspended for inappropriate comments)
I'd say that with the way you act here those lakes are probably full of mercury because your brain is certainly poisoned with something.
[updated Wed Oct 01 03:35:30 -0400 2008]
01 Oct 03:35
larryl
Liberalman .The Bloc document claims that the 1963 decision to establish the Borden line favoured the development of refineries in Ontario, to the detriment of Quebec. It should be remembered that the Borden line was established to help create a domestic oil industry by establishing a market for Western Canadian crude oil. All refineries west of the Ottawa Valley were required to purchase crude oil from Western Canadian sources, at higher than international prices. Quebec, far from being discriminated against, was allowed to continue to import crude oil at the lower, international price, thus giving Montreal refineries a clear competitive advantage.
When the international price of oil surpassed the domestic price for the first time in 1970, concerns about the accessibility of international sources of oil developed. In response, a pipeline was extended between Sarnia and Montreal to ensure Quebec access to crude oil. The Borden line was abolished in 1973. Some Montreal oil refineries were closed down in the 1970s and 1980s, it is true, but not because of the Borden line; the same thing happened elsewhere, as a result of economic factors, especially the oil crisis, which significantly diminished demand.
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:06:51 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:06
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
You're absolutely right !! It doesn't take away from the fact that Ontario paid out money for alberta for 12 years and they turn around and 'spit' in our faces !!
[updated Sat Sep 27 23:52:57 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 23:52
Foxer
ROFLMAO - yeahhhh ontario is so hard done by fiscally :)
Take a look at the response i made, and while you're at it, keep in mind that since the 90's alberta and it's oil have paid FAR FAR more per capita than ontario back to the federal gov't. And how's all those "low/no" interest loans and subsidies to ontario businesses like the auto industry working out for ya? We didn't see a lot of that stuff out west.
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:04:49 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:04
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
When YOU had it bad, we helped. When WE had it bad you refused to - end of story. Greed has NO bounds !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:14:10 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:14
Foxer
Well i'm in bc - different story - but i don't think it's fair to say alberta hasn't been paying it's share of dough back towards ottawa. Per capita it's a lot more than ontarians are paying and while this nonsense about 'alberta is paying for the country' isn't true, they do contribute a heck of a lot. We'd feel it if they stopped for example.
So - little bit of truth there on BOTH sides i'd have to say. And you'd also have to admit that ontario DID benefit from the development of national oil supplies.
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:42:43 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:42
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Never said Ontario didn't. I just wanted to get the 'Borden' thing going and it took off just like Ihtought it would.
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:46:32 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:46
larryl
mbags. If Ontario had not subsidized the begin of your oil industry you would not have had anything for Lougheed to use in his battle with Trudeau that he lost. You did read that reduced demand and a recession was responsible for the collapse not the N.E.P.Of course if Ontario had not paid for the irrigation of Alberta back in the dirty 30's there would not have been any body there except a few tumbleweeds and cactus.
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:44:37 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:44
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
YEP - You're right. and BTW - I'm a born and bred Torontonian - all 64 years of me(on Oct 6th)and have lived in T.O. for my whole life !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:49:51 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:49
Foxer
uhh - no he's not :) And ontario didn't pay for the irrigation systems at all, unless i missed something. The feds did. ANd that'd be the same feds making a lot of money from the rail system thatcharged more for goods heading east than west to protect ontario from goods made in the west while opening up western markets to their goods.
[updated Sun Sep 28 01:12:11 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 01:12
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
And where did the feds get MOST of their money back that long ago - ONTARIO !! we had the population !! Quebec was always 'on the dole' and the east was always broke !! We supported all of them, including Alberta !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 01:41:13 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 01:41
Foxer
Well - no, not exactly. The expansion west was actually at the insistance of ontario who wanted to secure the land for political reasons. The praries were huge sources of food and provided access to strategic locations like the pacific. And even in the 30's they were well aware of mineral and other wealth in the west - the gold rush had happened much earlier for example.
The crow rate paid a large part of the expansion - a particularly sore point for bc who only got sucked into confederation on the promise of a railroad and then found out they had to pay extra to use it.
And of course it paid off in spades many many times over. A few small investments here and there have paid large dividends again and again.
[updated Sun Sep 28 03:51:07 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 03:51
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
THATs the whole point. B**ch, b**ch, b**ch, yet in the long run BIG gains result. The 'philosophy of the west' - get somebody else to pay for it and when it's going great guns, take the money and run !!
Finally someone to ADMIT to this attitude but relent by saying "It was worth it" !!
I guess the Liberals actually DID know what they were doing - There's NO free ride. Liberals(govt's) will take your money and use it for developement and then give it back to you. THAT is why they have been the gov't of this country for the more than 'lion's share' of the last hundred years or so !! Bc complains - 'foxer' gave the result. Alberta benefitted greatly - turned on us like a rabid dog !! - Go figure !!
Thanks - 'foxer'.
[updated Sun Sep 28 12:27:02 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 12:27
Foxer
Actually, the 'big' gains were for ottawa :)
[updated Wed Oct 01 08:52:51 -0400 2008]
01 Oct 08:52
larryl
If you really are Mbags you should come to Brampton and buy a poor pensioner a beer or three.
[updated Sun Sep 28 01:17:44 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 01:17
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
You must know my son - he's known as 'bags', but I was the original. I'm 64(he's 44). I'm a poor old pensioner too - GM - 30 yers- retired at 50 !! LOL
[updated Sun Sep 28 01:36:59 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 01:36
larryl
Sorry. Don't know anybody by that name. I guess I will have to buy my own beer. Sell your property and move away from T.O. before they tax you into the poor house. Manitoulin is a great place to spend summers and and Arizona for winter. Property values in T.O should allow a nice retirement fishing on lake Manitou.
[updated Sun Sep 28 01:47:03 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 01:47
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
I'm a dyed-in-the -wool golfer. Have been for 53 years !! spend the winters in Naples, Florida - fabulous place. Beautiful courses, great beach for tourists and locals. Quiet enough for those of us who prefer our 'fun' in proper perspective ratrher than the razzle-dazzle of South Beach in Miami Beach, but WHAT a place it is, I have to admit !! To go there is OK. To winter there, even more expensive than Naples.
BUT - I've got a pro golfer down there for a friend - retired LPGA - 66 yrs old - beats the brains out of a golf ball and she has a friend who is even better than her and 10 yrs younger !! The two ladies and myself and a big guy-same age, we get together for matches for 'libations' at some of the most lovely private courses you will see for a long time and I play for 'cart fees' - what a blast. I even pick up my lady friend's tab. Some of these courses even a 'guest' of a member have to pay over $180 US to play !! she's got PULL !! what a 'stroke of luck'(pun intended). We're fast friends and my wife gets along with her great. This puppy's gonna last a long time. She teaches golf down there too during the winter. I gave her a putting 'tip'(she was awful) and it worked, considering how bad her stroke was, and that did it. Friends for life !! At least for the winter !! I can't score with her and her friend, but I'm good enough(lucky) to play with them and make the matches interesting. The other guy hits it a mile, but is a bit wild - evens up. I got it made, even for a Liberal !! LOL
[updated Sun Sep 28 02:03:00 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 02:03
fortescue
Hey Mbags.
Naples is georgeous, had my family there last november for a week. Nicest place we have found in florida so far. we drive down every year (7 years in a row) and stay in different places. Wife finds great deals and i tag along :)
[updated Sun Sep 28 12:38:26 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 12:38
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Great to hear that you 'found' Naples. We 'found' it about 20 years ago when taking the 'outlaws'(rest their souls) to see friends there. My in-laws had a place in Clearwater - nice BUUUT - Naples is WELL south of the 'frost line' and THATs the important thing along with how nice it is. It's WARMER there in the winter than Clearwater, ST. Pete's, Tampa !!
we've been at the in-laws place years ago at Christmas-New Years and it was NOT nice one time. Verily, in Naples it WAS warmer and MUCH better weather. The extra 145 miles by car is worth it in spades !!
Thanks for blogging about Naples - recommend it to all - friend and foe(politically).
MBAGS
[updated Sun Sep 28 13:04:00 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 13:04
westerner (suspended)
You must be very rich. If only people in the west could have such a life style.
[updated Sun Sep 28 13:16:12 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 13:16
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
That's a typical response either from a very young westerner or one who os totally 'indoctrinated' and foolish.
I worked my butt off on the production line for GM for 30 years(1964-1994) and
when our plant closed(due to the inablility to make MORE full-sized GM vans),
I was able to get my full pension and beneftis for the rest of my life.
I worked hard, saved my money AND my wife's and now we are comfortable.
There are countless thousands of Canadians in the same boat.
Live proper, work hard and enjoy retirement if good health precedes it. YES, I'm rich, rich for what both my wife and I have done with our lives, our family(we help them too).
We are 'rich' to have lived in Ontario where people 'care' about other people
and aren't greedy(for the most part) which is something I haven't noticed
about Albertans. I can't understand it, but there must be something in the tailings
ponds...errr....water out there, or something !! Almost ALL of the posting here and on other
'boards' have Albertans screaming bloody murder about whatever and spewing hate about Ontario and 'clinging' to their oil like Ebeneezer Scrooge. I just HOPE that the
3 'ghosts' of Christmas finally come down on Albertans and then they may, just may GET IT !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 13:33:55 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 13:33
westerner (suspended)
Surely with all your severe bitterness about Alberta's greed you will openly support Alberta Separation. Wouldn't you be better off with Alberta as a independent nation?
P.S. You are more than comfortable, you are rich. Audrey McLauglin, NDP, told Canada AM that anyone earning over $60,000 was in her definition "rich".
[updated Sun Sep 28 13:48:37 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 13:48
fortescue
Albeta can separate. Just as long as Ontario comes along. Who would subsidize our lavish lifestyles!!!
[updated Sun Sep 28 13:58:09 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 13:58
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
I'm NOT bitter - Albertans are !!
BTW - Mine and my wife's gross income is about $65K per annum. We're both retired. THAT is NOT a lot of money !! Now IF, as you say, our COMBINED income was $120K, you may have a point.
Live frugal when young and DON'T 'blow ' your money - save some every month. One day when you are 'old' like us(not so old) you just may be able to do what we have done as many thousands of our generation have. remember - YOU CAN'T have it all until you've EARNED it !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 14:08:57 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 14:08
westerner (suspended)
Read your own words! Vitriolic comments about Alberta's greed and negatives comments about MLAs, etc, etc. Brimming with bitterness. You need to take a tranquilizer. $65, 000 is a lot of money; Audrey said so and the NDP are not wrong.
[updated Sun Sep 28 14:28:56 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 14:28
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
'westener' - Get real for a moment !! Our didivded incomes work out to about $32,500
each !! That's chump change !! I earned a LOT of money when I worked for GM
because I put in gobs of overtime and worked myself into
the virtual ground for years.(ever heard of that !!). My wife had an office job for a lot of years and with
Good money management on my part, we are doing well, but it
took a long time and I used proper methods to get where we are.
If we're rich in money, what would you call the utter greed of the
''oil baron buddies' of harper inAlberta !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:01:12 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:01
westerner (suspended)
A $65,000 pension is a lot of money however you cut it. You are rich by any standard.
I can't comment on the "oil buddy barons" (whoever they are?) in BC., Alberta, Sask., and NFL.
[updated Sun Sep 28 18:23:43 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 18:23
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
'westerner' - What are you smokin'. I said that both my income and my wifes' add up to a gross total of $65K per annum - NOT $65K in pension. She gets $654 a month in Cpp. I get $506 Cpp.
I get $2100 from GM. we have investments built up over years and years of saving for retirement. Now get off your butt and do the same thing and YOU can have what we've earned through hard work and prudent saving and investments. If YOU haven't done it, shut up !! That makes you a complete fool to NOT have been prudent and if you're young or not nearly as old as we, you'd better hurry up and get it done instead of being jealous of those who did it right - fool !! Gawdalmighty. One works their butt off for years does it right and some 'punk' comes along and says we're rich. Now that IS rich !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:30:03 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:30
westerner (suspended)
If you have $65,000 in total income, from all sources, and winter in Florida you are rich! You should pay more taxes too.
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:31:17 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:31
fortescue
hey westener
we use the money we accumulated from the NEP to buy all Ontarians trips to Florida each year. Funds are running a little tight so we all may have to vote liberal soon so we can replenish our provincial vacation fund ;). Evertyhting I have been told is that the most radical westeners are former torontonians!! LOL
[updated Sun Sep 28 13:55:49 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 13:55
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
'fortescue' - How could you, my friend. Now EVERYONE will know !! LOL
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:03:27 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:03
TPQ (suspended for inappropriate comments)
larryl, remember that Harper now wants to build a wall around the west and Alberta in particular. Just focus on voting strategically and help get rid of Harper. Keep getting the word out that 65% of the population does not like Harper and needs to vote Liberal.
[updated Wed Oct 01 03:38:02 -0400 2008]
01 Oct 03:38
Foxer
Exactly. And this is the point i was making about the 'discount' mbags. If ontario refineries have to pay more, then quebec and eastern refineries have a 'discounted' price vs ontarto. It's a vote buying scheme for quebec.
Ottawa gets votes in quebec, and it gets royalties from the increased oil production in canada.
And who owned the oil companies doing the development? Was it alberta companies? No - no it was not :) It was the ontario based imperial oil. Followed by GCOS and sun oil. Guess where the profits flowed.
While it might have created a few jobs (development then was MUCH smaller than now) it really didn't outrageously benefit alberta for the vast majority of it's existance.
As to mr trudeau - we all know what the nep did to alberta. It crushed alberta's economy like a bug.
Now - you ask "How can Ontario with it's large population pay so much for 12 years and NOT have paid 1000 times a 'king's ransom' in direct favour of Alberta ??"
Well first off it wasn't 12 years - international oil became more expensive than alberta's in about 1970 - whereupon it was actually cheaper to buy from alberta. So it's more like 9 years of 'benefit'.
Secondly - you're confusing the people of ontario with the refineries of ontario. Ontario people (that vast population you mention) did not buy all their gas from ontario refineries. All this did was reduce the number of ontario refineries and increase the reliance on quebec refineries. The 'people' of ontario didn't care who's gas they were buying, nor did they fund this. The refineries paid the price.
And it turns out it was a benefit that they did - because after 1970 they and other canadian refineries could buy domestic oil cheaper than international oil. So in the end the benefitted.
Now - you compare 9 years of 'benefit' which was fairly marginal to about 100 years of things like the crow rate and the 6 years of nep etc, and do the math. Very quickly you'll see that the east benefitted far more than the west did from 'arrangements' like that.
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:01:41 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:01
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Your opinion is well stated, but Albertans on other sites have denied even hearing of Ontario helping, EVER !! It's an ingrained mindset !! The NEP did NOT damage the Alberta economy as you say did. many other jurisdictions suffered the same fate. Alberta was a fertile ground for lying politicians of their own(MLAs). They HAD to find someone to blame, so they convinced Albertans that it was the NEP - wrong !! Let's just agree to disagree. At least I've gotten some of you to at least admit that Ontario contributed to alberta and if you're old enough, pass it on tp the younger posters. They NEED to learn that !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:09:11 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:09
Foxer
Well albertans get worked up pretty easily. It's of course foolish to say that there has never been any kind of money flow to alberta. But i think it's wrong to suggest there's been a net benefit to alberta. (they think bc never helped them too - forgetting our taking of their poor in 93 ).
The NEP did damage alberta's economy. I'm sorry but it did.
As to the kids who are out there today screaming that somehow alberta built it's oil on it's own - i know the type you're taking about and what can you do, they're kids. Don't let 'em get to you like that :)
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:12:55 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:12
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
The NEP'cost' Alberta money that it would have otherwise tried to 'gouge' from the rest of the country. The fact that your own MLAs screwed up with your own money and huge supluses went somewhere(Alberta WAS making a pile of money after the NOP was scrapped). WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MONEY ?? Alberta was still making money when the NEP came into being. How can you blame bad management and NO 'rainy day' money being put away by your own provincial gov't ?? Alberta made scads of mnoey before the NEP - where did it go ??
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:23:59 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:23
Foxer
First point i should bring up - i'm not actually albertan. :) I'm british columbian. But we sure watched the whole thing happen - and tonnes of albertans who were broke came here to get work.
There can be little doubt looking at the economic activity of the time that the NEP put a severe damper on oil and job development in Alberta at the time, and of course that results directly in job layoffs and economic hardship.
Coming on the heels of the economic crisis of the time that everyone was facing, it murdered the province badly.
What the province may or may not have done with it's money prior to that isn't relevent to that fact - the NEP hurt at a time when alberta couldn't take a lot of hurt and it was a very negative thing.
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:34:34 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:34
westerner (suspended)
The NEP was hugely damaging to Alberta. Massive foreclosures and geologists were driving cabs.Drilling rigs moved to the USA and there were suicides among over extended construction workers. I lived those years and the economy tanked; Yes it was because to the stupid NEP of Trudeau not any general recession.
[updated Sun Sep 28 13:21:34 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 13:21
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Your opinion that has been 'beaten' into your head like most other Albertans. The major recession did most of the damage. Alberta had plenty of money before the 'crash' or should have. WHAT DID YOUR LYING MLAs DO WITH IT ?? The 'urban legend' was started by Albertan MLAs to save their sorry butts - blame Ottawa, it's NOT our fault, BUT, your MLAs had control over your money and 'blew' it. That's the only solution to where it went !!
that Alberta didn't save for a 'rainy day' with all their wealth is NOT the fault of Trudeau, Ontario or anyone one else except your own MLAs - period.
That Alberta suffered is sad and unfortunate - really unfortunate, but many other jusidictions suffered too, some even more in the states, like Texas and Louisiana. Alberta(MLAs) have lied to you for decades. Why stop now ?? They get elected constantly, don't they ?? BTW - Why did the west turn against Mulroney and basically cause him to 'jump ship' before it sank to 2 seats from 211 ?? I wonder where loyalties go ?? Oh yeah, I forgot, the 'western separatist' reform party, who picked the PC 'bones' clean and laughed all the way to Ottawa. You Albertans want ALL of the protections of Canada's 'social saftey net' and still complain that you shouldn't have to pay the premiums !! On top of that, you want special status and harper IS your man for now, as long as he 'toes' the Alberta 'creed'. We don't and never have 'hated' Alberta or the west, and your reasons for continuing the ridiculous notion that continued hate for us will eventually get you nowhere. It IS a 'quasi-religion' out there and the 'vampire' harper is 'feeding' off it !! Disgraceful !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 13:50:00 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 13:50
westerner (suspended)
Your bitterness and hatred for the west, and Alberta in particular, is palpable.
Surely you can bring yourself to agree the country would be better off if Alberta was a separate nation? Come on, you must be able to see the benefits for Ontario.
[updated Sun Sep 28 13:56:38 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 13:56
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Give it rest.
[updated Sun Sep 28 14:25:52 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 14:25
westerner (suspended)
Never. I wish to benefit Ontario.
[updated Sun Sep 28 14:30:48 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 14:30
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
My compliments to your sense of humour. More Albertans should have one !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:05:40 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:05
westerner (suspended)
Thank you!
[updated Sun Sep 28 18:25:26 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 18:25
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
You're welcome.
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:32:05 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:32
MRM
westerner - Does MBAGS sound like someone else we know? The sudden disappearance of parnel / TPQ and the coincidental appearance MBAGS along with the general tone and literary quality of his posts does make one wonder?
[updated Sun Sep 28 14:01:32 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 14:01
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Thanks for the compliment, I think. I'm for REAL, believe me and 'loaded for bear'
(no kidding). I'm fighting like the dickens here in Ontario to stop harper from getting
a majority - gawd help us all !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 14:41:55 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 14:41
MRM
How ya making out with that anyway?
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:55:13 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:55
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Got a LOT of action here, most of it from the west.
My lot don't do this sort of thing - too bad.
Dion's the problem - no doubt about it.
Ignatieff or Rae and different ballgame.
Libs then have a chance at minority(IMO).
At least another 'weak' harper minority
and his 'end' in Canadian politics.
Too bad it couldn't have happened.
[updated Sun Sep 28 16:12:48 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 16:12
westerner (suspended)
Hey Parnel. You predicted that the Liberals would break out of the starting gate last week (something about a clever Liberal strategy after day 16) and I was wondering did they trip coming out of the gate or are they waiting again for some secret election strategy.
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:35:15 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:35
MRM
MBAGS - Action here doesn't count for much. We will see how much "action" you get on 14 Oct!
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:52:14 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:52
westerner (suspended)
It does indeed. Parnel disappears and reappears as someone different every time. However, this post seems somewhat variable although the attacks on the west and Alberta in particularly sounds familiar.
[updated Sun Sep 28 18:28:31 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 18:28
fortescue
wow, finally a good political thread with a debate. Much more fun. Just out of curiousity, are we all not making out pretty good economically. Have we all not benefited from confederation. Why is this east versus west thing coming up, We shouldnt be =jeous of alberta's success, we should be happy for them. Ontario will come back and they will be happy for us (i hope). relax people its a great country, debate is good, we learn, we get smarter, and we appreciate each other more, even the odd zinger helps, keeps things light. by the way by far the busiest thread of the night. congradulations all!!
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:11:39 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:11
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Good idea, fortescue, but the 'Ottawa Valley Borden Line' thing sure brought out the 'swords' , didn't it ?? It MUST be 'touchy' for ANY Albertan not old enough to know these things to actually find out that it DID happen !! LOL
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:26:50 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:26
Foxer
The current elevation of past grievances to near - religious status with some folks out this way is, without a doubt, unfortunate.
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:31:04 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:31
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Agreed !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:41:55 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:41
Foxer
Lots of good questions.
1 - this is a subject of much debate - usually because people can't do math properly and forget what confederation is.
Every now and then some province or another will point out the 'get' less from confederation than they put in. This is proof it's not working for them. DUH - they kind of forget the idea is to buy common things as well, like the military. Did ja think that was free egghead?!? (not you fortescue, the eggheads who note they don't get back as much).
When you divvy up the actual total benefits and costs, most provinces do ok. Some argue they'd be better on their own, but it's kind of hard to say.
The east -west thing is an old fight. There is a huge amount of resentment in the west for wrongs done many many moons ago (for the most part) and little things now set westerners off. It's bred in the bone out this way, kids are raised on it. There are still some legit complaints but it's blown out of proportion due to anger from the past.
Which leads to stupid statements like "ontario is raping us". Or the even more entertaining "We're paying all the bills in confederation, with out us canada would shut down".
Which of course isn't even remotely true. Albertan's do pay more per capita in resource and tax dollars than ontario (bc does some years too) but amusingly bc pays more ACTUAL money to the feds than alberta, and both of us combined don't contribute even close to what ontario does in actual dollars.
So that offends some ontarians (case in point). And thus it continues :)
Like most squabbles in life it's about 90 percent stupid and 10 percent legitimate issues that might be resolved if people weren't being 90 percent stupid.
The west has some legitimate reasons to be pissed at the east - but no where near as much as many would suggest these days, and of course alberta's the worst for it.
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:28:49 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:28
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
'foxer' You have my 'blessing' to say that to EVERY Albertan with kind regards. Finally someone who can ahndle the fact that ***t happens. Your comment about it being NOT nearly as bad as albertans make out it is - well spoken. THATs what I've been trying to get at !!
thanks for a level-headed response !! MBAGS
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:39:28 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:39
fortescue
now that we soved that..... lets solve the Quebec problem......then will tackle senate reform...then world peace. they should be easy after that one
[updated Sun Sep 28 00:53:53 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 00:53
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
'fortescue' - i believe right now that Quebec is a bit on the quiet side vis-a-vis separation. They have 3 parties with numbers not that far apart.
The senate- Yeah, the 'west' would like to see it because it's Liberal dominated. I NEVER heard a complaint from them when Mulroney 'stacked' it with PCs. It goes with the territory. Live with it. world peace - once GWB is gone and Obama takes over, maybe another 1 or 2 .....hundred years and maybe it CAN be done or complete oblivion, one or the other. Even the youngsters here will NEVER see that as long as there's religion and politics and that's MORE than a true statement. LOL cheers - MBAGS
[updated Sun Sep 28 01:02:55 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 01:02
Foxer
"I NEVER heard a complaint from them when Mulroney 'stacked' it with PCs."
Well you weren't listening closely then :) the west didn't really like mulroney much. That's what kicked off the whole 'reform' movement. That started in bc and caught on in alberta like wildfire and spread across the west with lightning speed - much like the bloc in quebec but for different reasons. Quebec wanted out, and we wanted in. Which is why senate reform was big out this way.
[updated Sun Sep 28 01:17:40 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 01:17
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Come on !! If Muldoon hadn't flown the coop and caused even a worse debacle than should have happened(who would have guessed that the PCs would go from 211 seats in 1984 to '2' in 1993), the Reformers wouldn't have gotten as far as they did. Yes, they were 'salivating'(harper and all, my son) at the prospect of the PC demise and THAT makes harper ANYTHING BUT a 'conservative'. The Reform 'cleaned' the bones of the PCs and loved every minute of it. Bad news for Canada though. Look at the mess harper has got us in now !! He's bad, bad news - period !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 01:31:00 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 01:31
Foxer
Oh i think mulroney bailed because he knew what was coming. You think he'd have given up after just two terms if he didn't see the 'end of days' coming down the pipe?
And while everyone was shocked to see them reduced to 2, frankly i wasn't surprised to see them wiped out in general terms. Their support has always depended on the west and we withdrew it. Mulroney would have faired no better.
Firearms is a part of that - you can't go passing nasty gun laws like mulroney and kimmy did and win support in the west. We actually got bears and other critters around here and a pocket knife just doesn't cut it :)
But mostly it was the corruption. Westerners will go out of their way to wipe out corrupt gov'ts. Right wing, left wing, we've dusted both types before and likely will again.
[updated Sun Sep 28 01:46:31 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 01:46
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
I guess I can assume that harper's 'doomed' then !! LOL
[updated Sun Sep 28 01:49:12 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 01:49
Foxer
heh :) cheap shot :)
Harper's pretty clean. Layton's pretty clean too. For politicians.
Dion probably is as well, but the lib party is not. It's still full of the same rot that's been problems for some time now.
[updated Sun Sep 28 03:57:24 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 03:57
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
SO, you are telling me that the cpc and harper have NO 'rot'. Please, 'foxer'
you can do better than that. harper's a politician who has to 'fool' just enough people to get elected. You're a simple poster on a 'site' like I am and YOU want ME to 'buy into' THAT malarky !!??
[updated Sun Sep 28 12:38:32 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 12:38
Foxer
Too young to have any rot so far :)
Don't get me wrong - i'm not saying it's because 'conservatives are all pure of heart whereas all liberals are corrupt evil people by nature. Given enough time in power, we'll have some housecleaning to do. Again.
All politicians are politicans. That's their nature. But there's being a politician, and then there's genuinely corrupt. Adscam was corruption. Clinton banging a volunteer was being a politician :)
And there's very little 'simple' about me :)
The fact is that after so long in power, we have a problem in the liberal party. Not just the usual 'politiicans being politicians', and not the usual 'one or two bad apples' which you're going to get no matter what.
It can be fixed. But not while they're anywhere near power.
[updated Sun Sep 28 14:06:28 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 14:06
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Poor Dion's the problem without even trying, the poor soul.
The Liberals made a monumental blunder when they elected him leader. If they hadn't, this conversation probably wouldn't
be taking place. Ignatieff or even Rae, with a super-pro
front bench govt'-in-waiting would have given harper
a 'run for his money', for sure !!
I'll leave it at that.
[updated Sun Sep 28 14:54:38 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 14:54
Foxer
Hard to say. they'd do better than dion that's for sure - neither of them would have proposed the green tax.
The liberals did make a monumental mistake with dion, and not just because he's going to lose the campaign.
I really doubt the libs will survive this. It'll take years to wind down, but the party as we know it today is done. they can't afford the loss they're about to take. Just like the PC, they will have to go away and totally reinvent themselves. Clean out the rot - figure out what they really stand for, somehow wipe out their debt or start a new party, and come back as a new and fresh creation.
Which we need - canada needs choices, not just 'one party rule'.
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:02:29 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:02
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
It's NEVER happened since confederation and it impossible that it could.
Live in your 'dreamworld' that has occurred to Mulroney
and his ilk, but NEVER has it nor will it happen to the Liberals.
Mulroney had 211 seats in 1984 - (and he had 'bailed'
already, when the PCs were obliterated in 1993.
Diefenbaker had 208 seats(for ONE term - 1958-1963),
and LOST the next election to Pearson's Liberals.
DON'T use 'future' revisionist history wiht me. I KNOW
the facts, and harper will GO too, soon I hope, if he
gets a minority.
It's ALWAYS been that way - look it up.
I remember well the 2 instances for the PCs and it was pathetic.
Diefenbaker, the poor old soul just WOULDN'T go away
even after he lost a monumental majority after just ONE term !! He continued to 'vie'
for the PC leadership, the poor man was senile !!
In Mulroney's case, he simply quit so that we couldn't kick
him out while STILL in office, the coward. Now the lyin' Brian we
ALL know and 'love' has his 'plain brown envelopes of illegal cash'.
Now THATs 'conservative' in this country and ALWAYS HAS BEEN !!
A little story from old Toronto, even before it WAS Toronto.
The 'robber barons - the rich' controlled everything. william Lyon
McKenzie, eventually the first mayor of Toronto in 1834, fought
them tooth and nail. They burned down his newspaper producing
building and most of his house. McKenzie became eventually a Liberal, the
grandfather of William Lyon McKenzie King, Liberal pm of
Canada for 20 years.
The 'robber barons' of old 'muddy York' which became Toronto in 1834,
were called 'Tories' - I rest my case !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:51:00 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:51
MRM
Hi parnel.
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:54:26 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:54
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
I told you guys that I'm for real. I'll leave it at that.
There's more than ONE great mind, political or other
out there and I guess I'm one of them.
I fI give you a 'pain in the butt' - GOOD. That's why I'm here !!
LOL
[updated Sun Sep 28 16:15:45 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 16:15
westerner (suspended)
Hi Parnel. Conservatives 40%, Liberals 23%.
[updated Sun Sep 28 18:32:59 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 18:32
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
No comment - wrong name.
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:43:51 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:43
westerner (suspended)
BS, Parnel
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:36:20 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:36
Foxer
Not only is it possible, it's almost inevitable at this point. the ndp will most likely be the new 'red' party.
And the main reason for that isn't dion - it's actually chretien.
When chretien was leaving office - he slapped paul martin (who was pushing him out the door) in the face with new laws that restricted fundraising. The liberals could no longer get significant donations from businesses.
It's the death of them. If they do as badly as they are likely to, they will be broke. Bankrupt most likely within 4 years.
Their financial situation was dysmal going into the election and it's going to be severely worse coming out of it, both in their gov't stipend and in fundraising. They'll now have 10 million bucks in debt on top of it. And the next leadership convention to pay for while most contenders still have no paid off the debt from their last one.
Future revisionist history? :) :) hehehe - oookaaay :)
Mulroney bailed for exactly that reason - and i believe that he did take money when he really shouldn't have and tried to hide it. Of course - the BIG difference between him and chretien is that it wasn't TAXPAYERS money he was stealing - and he took it to approach other countries, not distrupt democracy in canada.
Pretty massive differences. One is unethical. the other is much more severe.
Liberals have been corrupt in the worst sense of the word since trudeau.
I don't know about 1834 - but i can tell you that in 2008 the liberals are the corrupt busines scum that need to be fought tooth and nail.
And we did. Formed new parties - cleaned the trash - and in about 2 weeks and change we'll wipe the liberal party off the face of the political landscape in canada.
They are gone. And good riddance to bad rubbish. They are theiving lying scum for the most part and need to go.
The core that is honest will persist and re-invent themselves. It may or may not be called 'liberal' but it will be something similar. Just like the conservatives did.
Do a little reading bud. The liberals have always been the party of corruption for the last 70 years or so. Mackenzie king - yeah.. he was a REAL piece of work :)
[updated Sun Sep 28 16:24:44 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 16:24
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
You would like that wouldn't you !! Ain't gonna happen'
NOW the hatred is flowing - had a coupleof beers or what ??
'foxer' - I gave you a 'rope' to help youself in conversing
with me on a sensible level.
YOU HAVE 'HUNG' YOUSELF WITH IT !!
YOU'RE OFF THE 'SHORT LIST' OF PEOPLE
I WILL TOLERATE FROM THE WEST.
I've tried to be decent for a day and a half and you come
up with this 'tripe'. what a dsigrace !! You SO tried to be
'nice' but the 'inbred' hate just couldn't stay 'dormant'
even with a level-headed and very knowlegeable
Ontarian like myself. I've even been complimented
and been mistaken for someone else who's a 'pain
in the butt' to you guys.
enough - You're gone !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 16:40:51 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 16:40
Foxer
It has already happened. It's too late to change that - even if the libs had gotten what they did last time they were probably done. But it's pretty obvious they won't do as well as they did last time.
There have been numerous articles examining the liberal finances. They do have to report after all. And there won't be very many brown envelopes to bail them out this time.
Aww - off the short list of people you will 'tolerate' from the west am i :) hehehe - don't be too quick - ontario's working for us now not the other way around :)
(ok - that was mostly just to get your goat, but it's still true :) )
However - it's not a 'hatred' of ontario that pushes me towards the cpc.
I'm very curious - why do you associate supporting the cpc with hating ontario?
[updated Sun Sep 28 18:31:05 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 18:31
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
You need to ask THAT question ?? The water MUST have cpc 'worms' in it !!
harper is on a mission to destroy Ontario and the little p***k flaherty should be strung up for what he's said and done against Ontario. The leprechaun lives around the corner from the GM Assembly facilities. He's got a nerve talking the way he does. I'm surprised he hasn't ended up in Lake Ontario with lead boots on !! LOL
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:42:03 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:42
westerner (suspended)
Such hatred coming from Ontario.
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:25:20 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:25
Foxer
I think it's safe to say harper has no interest in destroying ontario.
Flaterty told you the truth. If you don't like the truth that's your problem. But it's still the truth. Businesses don't stay where they can't make money, and they can't make money if they are paying too high a tax.
That's why ontario is having a hard time holding on to it's manufacturing jobs. One might wish he was more diplomatic and a little less pushy - but what he said is true. In parts of canada where taxes are lower - we're actually still pretty strong.
If your theory is that not wanting a weasel like dion in power must mean some secret conspiricy to attack ontario you've gone more bonkers than those alberta boys who think alberta pays all canada's bills :) It has nothing to do with ontario.
the west is very different than ontario. Unlike ontario, we dont' seek power. We just seek to be left alone for the most part - no stupid laws that have no place out here, no dumb taxes that will go to others anyway, etc.
we don't really care about 'destroying' anyone else. We just pretty much don't want anyone destroying us. We're pretty happy with that. :)
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:31:48 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:31
westerner (suspended)
Hi Parnel, "The level headed and very knowledgeable Ontarian" NOT ;and keep providing your fantasies and made up stories. It is very entertaining.
[updated Sun Sep 28 18:36:36 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 18:36
Excuse my ignorance. Where is Parnel? I miss him.
[updated Sun Sep 28 18:40:54 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 18:40
westerner (suspended)
MBAGS
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:23:32 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:23
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Read my disclaimer to this 'parnell' guy. I said he might just be my handsome twin brother I've never met and my mom(RIP) never told me !! LOL
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:50:38 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:50
westerner (suspended)
Hi Parnel: You really did fake it very well for a day and one half but you have been outed. Time to change your name again!!
[updated Sun Sep 28 18:47:32 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 18:47
Hehe. This is too funny. Westerner believes Parnell has reincarnated himself MBAGS? Too much.
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:32:26 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:32
westerner (suspended)
Believe his tag was Parnel, then TPQ, now BMAGS. Lots of fun! Missed him.
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:42:43 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:42
Foxer
Well you're welcome, but as you say it's the simple truth. Too many people just don't take the time to look the truth up anymore.
[updated Sun Sep 28 01:19:05 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 01:19
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
'foxer' - Right back at you. Looking things up before one speaks or 'posts' is a good idea. The truth is always the best. As has been said, it's been bred in 'the bones' of Albertans to 'hate' Ontario and the convoluted reason is 'old' and worn out. Too bad the youngsters are so gullible !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 01:33:55 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 01:33
Foxer
Well - most of the west was raised that way - bc and alberta especially. And some of the reasons are real enough - but not near enough to justify the depth of it. Still - old habits and all that. Heck -I- still hate ontario, i'm just old enough and wise enough to recognize it's mostly irrational and not let it interfere with my thought process :)
[updated Sun Sep 28 03:37:40 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 03:37
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Ok - I can see where you're coming from as long
as you realise where I'm coming from !! LOL
[updated Sun Sep 28 12:12:13 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 12:12
Foxer
Oh yeah, i get where you're coming from and i know the type of guy who's irritating you :) some of the 'zealots' come up with some of the most rediculous comments.
BC has been more immune, but i'm sure someday at some point some premier is going to magically 'discover' we've been paying more than we get (which is the story for virtually every province with the possible exception of quebec some years).
[updated Sun Sep 28 12:45:25 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 12:45
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Much MORE the case with Ontario. Now I'm NOT blaming harper for the 'start'
of 'transfer payments' not being 'up to snuff' with Ontario. THAT happened under the
Liberals. What I DO dislike is that harper says that all is fine and that, in his opinion
actually flaherty's(same thing), if Ontario lowered its corporate tax rate, we would do better.
Heck we NEED those taxes to just keep afloat. Thanks to the high dollar and
HIGH OIL PRICES( AHEM !!)our auto industry is being devastated, but harper doen't care. I mean he DOESN'T CARE- literally !! 'The west is best' and 'p' on the rest of us - that is harper's credo. I really can't understand the fools in Ontario who vote for him when he's at the 'forefront' of the continuing economical devastation of Ontario. It's as if he WANTS PAYBACK for the NEP. Remember, he was born in Toronto(Leaside). His family moved to Calgary and he was educated there(indoctrinated - true - he joined the Reform Party readily at a young age). Having gone there at 19(1978), his indoctrination was right in the middle of the tug-of-war with Ottawa over oil. Even though the Reformers didn't become a federal 'force' until 1993, due to the complete demise of the PCs, harper was in it up to his ears. He's NOT a 'conservative' in any way at all. He's a 'western separatist' under the Reform banner, pure and simple !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 13:17:03 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 13:17
Foxer
I can appreciate the idea that lowering taxes creates short term pain that's unacceptable to some.
But the fact is - we went thru that pain out here and in alberta and saskactchewan, and our economies are doing much much better than Ontario. It DOES bring business in, especially business that's not already established in the area.
The more business that opens up the more tax money there is for the gov't.
In the 90's, bc's higher taxes and red tape was very different to alberta's. The alberta chamber of commerce at the time elected the bc premier who insisted on keeping it high as the 'alberta businessman of the year' :) Seriously.
When we lowered our taxes and red tape things changed very quickly.
It's just the way it is - lower taxes mean more businesses which means more tax money.
It's the same as a business - if your prices are too high, then nobody buys from you. So sales suck and you think you can't afford to lower prices because you're not making enough as it is. But the fact is if you lowered your prices you'd make far more sales and have MORE money.
Simplistic but it works.
[updated Sun Sep 28 14:45:45 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 14:45
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
In all due respect - you had the dough recently, we don't thanks to mike harris
jim flaherty and john baird et al 'traitors' from Ontario's devastating
Pc gov't. 'Feeders at the political trough' all of them. They are all
a disgrace to this province and to Canada. They destroyed Ontario,
and they are now GLAD to collect a huge paycheque to help further
destroy it from Ottawa !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:10:38 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:10
Foxer
We were stony broke in 2000. I mean - horribly broke. A have not province for the first time. And we had the ndp to thank for it at the time. High taxes, etc.
We kicked their ass out - took the hit and suffered the bad times and cut personal and corporate taxes. By 2004 we were healthy and strong again.
And it sure as crap wasn't the liberal gov't in ottawa that made that happen. They'd been downloading costs to the provinces for years.
You need to kick out your current gov't and put one in that will actually move ontario forward. That's going to mean making it very attractive for businesses to set up and invest there, and diversifying the economy. It's not easy, but it has to be done. We were there, i know what it's like, but you'll be better for it.
[updated Sun Sep 28 15:31:56 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 15:31
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
AS LONG AS WE IN ONTARIO GET OUR 'FAIR SHARE' OF
TRANSFER PAYMENTS. OUR 'SERVICES' DOLLAR FOR
DOLLAR AREN'T EVEN CLOSE TO THE 'HAVE NOT'
PROVINCES !! OUR EI PROGRAM MAKES IT SO THAT
UNEMPLOYED WORKER IN ONTARIO GET AT LEAST
OVER $4000 LESS PER ANNUM THAN OUR FEDERAL 'PARTNERS'-
THE OTHER PROVINCES, AND FOR LESS TIME AND
MUCH FEWER PEOPLE ARE ELIGIBLE !!
ALSO, WE GET AN AVERAGE OF $2000 PER IMMIGRANT
TO ONTARIO, QUEBEC GETS $4000 !!!!!!??????
We're getting 'screwed' royally !! Hospital services and health care
tranfers are way down compared to other provinces !!
I guess you DON'T get that NEWS out there, but it's TRUE !!
Ontario sends over $20Billion MORE to Ottawa than it gets back
in transfer payments - THAT'S pure, unadulterated theft !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 16:00:36 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 16:00
Foxer
Caps lock make your post kinda hard to read bud. Just thought i'd mention it.
Well Yeah, i tend to disagree with things like the UI plan being unbalanced and the like.
But it's been that way for ever and to a degree Ontario is victim of it's own political power.
For 100 years ontario and quebec chose the gov'ts of canada, and ontario more than anyone. The rest only counted in the case of a 'tie'.
That lead to a bad situation - not one that ontarians really 'chose' or thought about but one that existed nonetheless.
Gov'ts realized that they only had to do what ontario and quebec wanted to get elected. And they pandered to those two provinces to the detriment of the others. And because of that - the political power of the country AND the financial power became vested in ontario.
They set up plans and programs to centralize power. Lets face it - if quebec or ontario felt something - there was a law passed the next day.
Now with the rise of the west that's changing. The west for the first time has more votes than quebec does, and almost as many as ontario. Economic power is shifting as well.
But the political programs that were put in place are still there - transfers are based on what's happened in the past.
The fact is - if a politician has the west and quebec in his pocket he's got a majority gov't.
So as funds get tight, and gov'ts struggle to pay the bills without going into deficit, ontario tends to get left out.
In years gone by if we faced what we do now - there would BE no 'gateway' projects in the west and the oil profits would be taken by ottawa - and they would spend that AND go into deficit if necessary to bail out ontario.
That's not going to happen any more. At best - the rurral areas are going to get the money.
Personally - i'd agree and push for fair transfers to everyone for federal gov't programs like IE. But you have to know quebec is always going to get a 'special deal'. Hey - i know your pain, they've always gotten more than any western province completely. Don't think we havent' watched the same thing over the years and been angry about it. But it's the way it is.
If ontario's people ever became 'real' conservatives it would be different. But as long as they believe in a strong central gov't and lots of gov't programs, it will never happen. It means to win you need the west and quebec, ontario's metro areas won't give you a victory anymore.
And this is why i tend to favour decentralized gov'ts. They tend to be more fair :)
[updated Sun Sep 28 16:38:27 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 16:38
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
As i said - you're gone. can't 'play' with a guy 'dealing from the bottom of the deck'.
Be straight with me and NO western BS unless my
facts or opinions are WRONG !! Don't ever take
away my right to express it wihtout at least giving me
unadulterated proof that I'm wrong or get off this board !!
I can't tolerate biased unfounded opinion or 'revisionist history',
especially from the west and ALL based on Alberta's
lying MLAs and harper's proding of the past for his own gain.
He' a disgrace to this country and to Alberta. When you
find out just how bad he is, just take him with you when you
go, as it seems you want to and 'turn out the light' when
you leave.
[updated Sun Sep 28 16:48:43 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 16:48
Foxer
I've been nothing but straight with you.
Sounds more to me you're someone who just doesn't like to hear the truth.
As to getting off the board - nope. Sorry but loudmouth crybabies don't get to chase me anywhere.
You sure do ACT like ontario - whine, cry, and when someone challenges you on anything shake your fist and run.
And you wonder why the rest of canada really doesn't like you :) heh.
And you wonder why your province is in a mess. which is even funnier.
Get your head out of the sand and be a man, not some whiny child. Honestly - i have no patience for temper tantrums in anyone over 8 years of age.
[updated Sun Sep 28 18:34:55 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 18:34
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
Over and out. BTW - Whoever this 'parnell' guy is, he MUST be my handsome twin brother whom I've never met !! LOL
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:47:21 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:47
Foxer
Parnel? I never brought up anyone named parnel?
[updated Sun Sep 28 20:32:57 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 20:32
westerner (suspended)
Hi Parnel. Could you tell us more about your time in the GM auto plants and your $65,000 pension and your winter stay in Florida?
[updated Sun Sep 28 18:41:29 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 18:41
westerner (suspended)
Thats the old Parnel we all know!
[updated Sun Sep 28 18:38:52 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 18:38
MBAGS (suspended for inappropriate comments)
If you say so !! I couldn't care less. I'm the real MBAGS from Toronto, Ontario, Canada and WE plan to stay that way with NO b****ing !!
[updated Sun Sep 28 19:53:08 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 19:53
westerner (suspended)
What you should do is post on the same day as Parnel, TPQ and BMAGS and the fake would be really effective.
[updated Sun Sep 28 21:30:13 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 21:30
TPQ (suspended for inappropriate comments)
foxer, you're full of crap as usual. The Ontario refineries did provide all the gas in Ontario. Crude was exclusively imported from the west in a manner that protected western production from cheaper imported oil that went to Quebec. Quebec refineries, until the 80's refined almost all the crude used in Canada east of the Ontario/Quebec border and those refineries got a break on import duties. Canada has only recently become a net exporter of oil and some of that is from the east coast where almost all crude oil and some of the gas produced is shipped into the US markets.
The Sarnia pipeline was not reversed until just a few years ago that then allowed imported crude to flow from Montreal to Ontario. Western Canada crude now goes to the US as well as Eastern Canada.
Alberta now receives full world prices for their crude whereas before they were subsidized by the feds in various ways usually through tax breaks. The NEP protest vote in the west is a figment of peoples imaginations believing in urban legends and perpatrated by successive Alberta tory governments as an election weapon.
[updated Wed Oct 01 03:50:40 -0400 2008]
01 Oct 03:50
Foxer
I don't think that's true tpq. Nor do i think they only sold gas in ontario. It's not like there's a refinery for each province or anything, or anything to stop gas companies selling gas to whomever they like.
You seem to suggest that all gasoline east of ontario was provided by quebec, whereas all gas west of ontario and in ontario was provided by ontario. If that WERE the case, it was a lot more than just ontario footing the bill for 'western' oil.
However - we know that by 1970 alberta oil was cheaper than world oil anyway. So regardless of when the 'pipeline' reversed, ontario wasn't suffering buying alberta oil from that point forward.
The NEP devistated alberta's economy. And trudeau's own people admitted later it was a 'wealth shift' designed to shift wealth from alberta to ottawa to pay for promises in ontario and quebec.
So nice try.
[updated Wed Oct 01 08:59:46 -0400 2008]
01 Oct 08:59
MRM
Googling "Ottawa Valley Borden Line" comes up with nothing related to what you are talking about which may be why no one is talikng about it?
[updated Mon Sep 29 08:53:09 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 08:53
larryl
MRM. You should change your ISP. My google shows 18200 entries when I googled ottawa va lley borden line. They do not all have anything to do with the topiv of discussion but a fewdo. Tried just borden line and on the 3rd page found a website for nikonthenumbers. When I opened that it took me back to this site with the latest comment being posted as MRM The Borden line
The Bloc document claims that the 1963 decision to establish the Borden line favoured the development of refineries in Ontario, to the detriment of Quebec. It should be remembered that the Borden line was established to help create a domestic oil industry by establishing a market for Western Canadian crude oil. All refineries west of the Ottawa Valley were required to purchase crude oil from Western Canadian sources, at higher than international prices. Quebec, far from being discriminated against, was allowed to continue to import crude oil at the lower, international price, thus giving Montreal refineries a clear competitive advantage.
When the international price of oil surpassed the domestic price for the first time in 1970, concerns about the accessibility of international sources of oil developed. In response, a pipeline was extended between Sarnia and Montreal to ensure Quebec access to crude oil. The Borden line was abolished in 1973. Some Montreal oil refineries were closed down in the 1970s and 1980s, it is true, but not because of the Borden line; the same thing happened elsewhere, as a result of economic factors, especially the oil crisis, which significantly diminished demand. Were you living in
Ontario back then?Media Archives of former Ministers. Try that and see what you come up with. Denying you can't find it is a pretty lame excuse.
[updated Mon Sep 29 09:14:40 -0400 2008]
29 Sep 09:14
MRM
larryl – I just Googled it again and went back 10 pages-Nothing. Frankly I am not that interested in the subject so cannot be bothered to look any further. Even if you think that is a lame excuse I guess I will just have to bear that cross. But thanks for the info. Based on what you told me how was it that the East disadvantaged the West again? Also what does the post you claim I wrote on this subject say and when was it written. Since I never heard of this subject until it showed up here I would be interested in knowing?
[updated Tue Sep 30 00:24:38 -0400 2008]
30 Sep 00:24
larryl
MRM. The two paragraphs I posted were the point of finding info on the Borden Line. Ontario was forced to buy Alberta crude at higher than world prices. We provided some of the capital to establish the oil industry. If people knew of the tax deductions big oil was allowed by the federal government ,it would be clear we paid for foreign companies to walk in and steal what should have been a national benefit but actually cost us money. Four dollar deductions for every dollar invested meant they paid no federal tax for years. Westerners love to blame the N.E.P. for the collapse of the industry but would never admit the feds were responsible for creating it in the first place. The Borden line was established by Diefenbaker to benefit the west and the taxpayer paid as per usual.
[updated Tue Sep 30 08:18:03 -0400 2008]
30 Sep 08:18
MRM
larryl - Thanks but like MBAGS says - It was 1960. Who cares?
[updated Thu Oct 02 01:27:11 -0400 2008]
02 Oct 01:27
larryl
MRM. Why would you start to care about the truth at this point? It was according to the info I copied and pasted on Monday legislation that Dief passed in 1963. It shows Ontario was forced to pay higher than world prices for Alberta oil for years but you don't want to acknowledge that. The taxpayers of Ontario helped establish the fledgeling industry but you will never admit that. "Who cares" How childish an argument? If you want to read the document for yourself to verify the date go to
Media Archives of Former ministers.
[updated Thu Oct 02 10:43:03 -0400 2008]
02 Oct 10:43
TPQ (suspended for inappropriate comments)
larryl, that guy is a right wing idealogue and unless the writings are by some hitleresque type writer his computer won't go there.
[updated Wed Oct 01 03:53:25 -0400 2008]
01 Oct 03:53
Foxer
Turn to NDP to stop Harper, Layton says after poll gains
JULIAN BELTRAME
The Canadian Press
September 27, 2008 at 9:24 PM EDT
OTTAWA — A resurgent NDP Leader Jack Layton called on voters to flock to him as the only legitimate alternative to the Conservatives after national polls showed the traditional also-ran party closing in on second place.
“Here in B.C., the choice is very clear, if you want to stop [Stephen] Harper only New Democrats can do it,” he told a rally in Vancouver.
“Everywhere I go, at every family home, at every kitchen table, I'm hearing the same thing. This time Canada is going to make a different choice. This year we're going to say goodbye to 25 years of failed leadership in Ottawa.”
Mr. Layton's soaring optimism comes after a new Canadian Press Harris-Decima put the NDP at 19 per cent in popular support, up five points from the start of the campaign – and within striking distance of the Liberals, who remained stagnant at 23 per cent."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080927.welexwrap0927/BNStory/politics
And it goes on from there.
Well - this is what we were expecting sooner or later. I thought he might wait till the debates, but that Harris Decima poll seems to have emboldened him into making it an issue now.
So - will the people bite? Will this remain his message? Is the ndp going to move up in the polls in the next couple of days?
Place your bets people :)
[updated Sat Sep 27 22:45:54 -0400 2008]
27 Sep 22:45
5 replies so far. Join this conversationHide this conversation.
I am in favour of a smaller more efficient Federal Government. I don't mean gutting our services or protection of our National interests but I want our Provinces and cities to have more taxing power to address local priorities.
What are the priorities you would like to see our Federal Government enact in the next HOC? (Keep it Federal ie Healthcare or property taxes are not a Federal jurisdiction)
[updated Sun Sep 28 12:03:26 -0400 2008]
28 Sep 12:03
No replies yet. Join this conversationHide this conversation.