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Leadership Tracking - Harper personal image untouched by controversy (Analysis with video)
The latest tracking from CPAC and Nanos Research indicates that regardless of recent controversies in the media faced by the Harper government, there has been no impact on the Prime Minister’s personal image. However, an increasing number of Canadians are unsure or select “none of the above” when it comes to chosing the federal leader who is the strongest on trust, competence or vision. Stephen Harper continues to rate strongly on competence.
Select read the full piece to watch the video with the stats and Nik’s analysis.
What do you think?
Cheers,
NJN
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Most Read Comments
Highest Rated Comments
Nik: a "new" electorate appears to be forming with a "major apolitical swing gro... more
Tom Good (British Columbia) 09 May 03:47
Nik's polling shows that Harper (the teflon PM) continues to be consistently per... more
hollinm (Saskatchewan) 09 May 10:21
Nick, some good points there and there are some things the Liberals and others a... more
parnel (Ontario) 09 May 04:40
This was not parnel's comments but somebody on the Globe thread. However, Parnel... more
hollinm (Saskatchewan) 14 May 15:33
parnel...you ar so full of s..t. Who asks the questions day after day in QP abou... more
hollinm (Saskatchewan) 15 May 17:28
So you think Dion is a fair and decent man and by contrast I assume you think Mr... more
hollinm (Saskatchewan) 19 May 00:37
Comments
Tom Good
Nik: a "new" electorate appears to be forming with a "major apolitical swing group" outside the traditional party fold. That group is very fluid. Where they may place their votes possibly will depend upon a political courtship ritual like we have never seen before. It looks like Harper is in the lead but with almost a third of the electorate in the "swinger's" group, that is like trying to hold quick silver in your hands----difficult and dangerous. As you say, to gain the non-committed's attention, it will require a good dose of vision for the future that we have not seen too much of lately with the antics in the House.
[updated Fri May 09 03:47:31 EDT 2008]
09 May 03:47
47 replies so far. Join this conversationHide this conversation.
parnel
Nick, some good points there and there are some things the Liberals and others are doing to move away from the condemnation approach they have been using which while not being direct hits apparently have stalled his numbers. Harper though, has the advantage of being the PM and should be even more solid in the polls using that office, and he isn't. His numbers have stalled and may even be trending down a little and with the undecideds having more weight than his overall popularity I see great openings for the others to define themselves. The carbon tax shift is probably only one of the initiatives the Lberals will roll out over the summer.
If the Liberals can dent Harper though the overall Tory support will fall like a rock and your poll indicates that vulnerability by the large numbers of undecideds.
[updated Fri May 09 04:40:41 EDT 2008]
09 May 04:40
82 replies so far. Join this conversationHide this conversation.
MRM
The Tories have to be very pleased with these numbers for three reasons: First, the opposition tactics of fabricating scandal after scandal has backfired on them and in fact has actually cost them support. Second, while the Tories core support has remained unchanged, there is now a huge undecided pool to try and draw that extra five to ten percent needed for a majority. This means that that pool is made up largely from the waning support of the other parties. And finally, I think that a lot of Canadians tend to vote more for the leader they most like than the party. With the PM out in front by a two to one margin or more on the issues of trust, competence and vision this positions the party very well to tap in into that undecided pool.
[updated Fri May 09 08:35:05 EDT 2008]
09 May 08:35
19 replies so far. Join this conversationHide this conversation.
westerner (suspended)
This is very good news for the Conservaitves in the aftermath of intense Liberal mudslinging. The Liberals are devoid of new ideas except a carbon tax on gasoline. Given the Liberal attempts to denigrate and slander Conservatives at every opportunity the Conservative support has held firm.
[updated Fri May 09 09:25:13 EDT 2008]
09 May 09:25
3 replies so far. Join this conversationHide this conversation.
hollinm
Nik's polling shows that Harper (the teflon PM) continues to be consistently perceived by the public to be better than all of the other leaders when it comes to trustworthiness, vision and competence.
The fact that the numbers for all the other leaders has dropped while the PM's numbers have remained consistent shows that Canadians are questioning their previous support for the opposition leaders/parties and electing to choose the undecided category. This should be of real concern for those leaders.
Dion continues to fail to impress the electorate and in fact his numbers are getting worse with each poll. The message to Dion and the Libs is that focusing on faux scandals, abstaining from voting and failing to put forward the Liberal vision for the country is going to continue to hurt the Liberal party big time.
This is a real plus for the Conservative government. It shows the government is on the right track and while Harper may not be lighting the house on fire the public recognizes he is the best choice among the current leaders' group.
With the musings about a carbon tax Dion has in fact handed Harper a majority government. Dion trying to explain the carbon tax and tax shifting idea will prove to be a disaster. With his broken English, lack of trust in the Liberal Party (adscam), the track record over 13 years of broken promises and the Libs desire to keep taxes the highest among the G7 this will allow the Conservative party to paint a very unflattering picture of Dion and the Liberal Party.
There simply will be no credibility with public when the Liberals promise a revenue neutal scheme which is code for higher taxes.
[updated Fri May 09 10:21:14 EDT 2008]
09 May 10:21
16 replies so far. Join this conversationHide this conversation.
degres
What I find interesting is the PM rating is same (+/- 1). All the others have dropped. I think it is time for them to show interest in the country, not trying to score political point.
PLEASE stop calling a Royal Commission on everything but the dog. If A.G./RCMP bring up concerns I would support a Royal Commission; in most cases they have been a waste of time, resources, and tax dollars.
[updated Sun May 11 00:18:05 EDT 2008]
11 May 00:18
2 replies so far. Join this conversationHide this conversation.
Bernie
Who gives a rodents rear end about "personal image" or "leader"
I'd vote for a tasmanian devil if he presented me with a good policy platform
Stalin, Hitler, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, today's ruler of Burma, George Bush were/are "leaders of their people. No! Thank you! I don't want leaders.
Giev me someone who will follow the peoples' lead.
I don't propose to know what characterisics comprise a "leader" or a good "personal image". I would suggest it takes more than those three covered in the poll.
I find Harper the least trustworthy of the lot. Granted the others are not in a position whereby we have an opportunity to evaluate them as much. When you are not in power not as much attention is paid to what you say or do. So there is a different basis for evaluation. Harper has revealed his untrustworthiness before he became head of his party, while head of his party and even more so since becoming PM.
Nor do I give him a high competence rating. He has made many mistakes since becoming PM. Mistakes a more competent PM would not make.
Who knows what his vision is? I suspect what it is and it is the most reason that I would do what I can to see that he never gets a majority.
[updated Sun May 11 08:47:50 EDT 2008]
11 May 08:47
10 replies so far. Join this conversationHide this conversation.
parnel
I think another issue has cropped up In Quebec for Harper..The right wing ADQ got hammered in each of three byelections there today doing significantly worse than in the last general election. That party is his alter ego there.
[updated Mon May 12 21:59:02 EDT 2008]
12 May 21:59
18 replies so far. Join this conversationHide this conversation.
Non-aligned in Toronto
Darn! I wish I was the leader of the "None of the Above Party"
[updated Wed May 14 09:42:20 EDT 2008]
14 May 09:42
203 replies so far. Join this conversationHide this conversation.
parnel
Yep and then you could have a government that was all things to all people and we would be broke.
goo stuff!!
[updated Wed May 14 10:29:31 EDT 2008]
14 May 10:29
Non-aligned in Toronto
Parnel; why do you think there is such a disconnect between a third of Canadians, and the leadership of parties of all stripes. Lack of vision? Lack of Passion? Lack of a plan? Or do you think that just maybe people are sick of partisan mud-slinging?
[updated Wed May 14 10:41:30 EDT 2008]
14 May 10:41
parnel
they are sick of the partisian mud slinging but we have a PM who can only throw dirt around to discredit the others because he has nothing else to offer. Dion is coming along with a very good platform for good change in Canada in both economic and environmental terms. Lets see how that plays out.
[updated Wed May 14 10:47:31 EDT 2008]
14 May 10:47
Non-aligned in Toronto
I have seen dribs and drabs of policy coming out of the LPC but very little of substance. Recognizing that the Libs may want to play things close to the vest until an election is actually called, it still would be nice to see at least a framework of where Dion wants to take his party and the country. To their credit, the Cons did produce such an agenda (the five points) and whether you agree with the direction or not (I don't) for at least the first year, they largely delivered what they said they would. Since then they have been directionless and reactionary in their government style, mainly, I think. because they didn't expect to be in government this long..
[updated Wed May 14 11:50:28 EDT 2008]
14 May 11:50
hollinm
Dion policies thus far:
- solve child poverty. He forgot to mention the Liberals promised that in 2000.
- green mortgages
- give more infrastructure money if the suprlus is over $3 billion.
- carbon tax
If he moves forward on the carbon tax Canadians will abandon the Liberals in droves. Even the big cities understand higher taxes.
With 3 parties on the far left and a minority government there is little Harper can do that will get support. Of course as a back up we have the Liberal dominated Senate. Not a recipe for getting things done.
The Liberals still believe Canadians made a mistake when they were defeated. So the object is to ensure that the government cannot introduce legislation and get it passed so that they have nothing to put in the window at election time.
However, Harper by holding confidence votes has pushed through some stuff. However, big grandiose visions from a conservative government will require a majority government given the make up of the House today.
[updated Thu May 15 17:36:16 EDT 2008]
15 May 17:36
Georgine
Hey Na in TO, The LPC have to play things close because the CONs (I refuse to call them Tories) have stolen their ideas in the past. Once in power they closed departments such as large parts of Environment Canada, reassigned people to different departments, then started things up again under a new name with new people, and tada! a new program! Lots of that sort of thing has been documented. That's not even so bad, at least programs are still sort of functioning, although a lot are simply gone.
Now we have the muzzling of scientists. This is simply fascist. There is no other word for it. What are the CONs so afraid of? We know they don't believe in Climate Change, only in a change in the weather. We know they hate to be contradicted. For instance about the dinosaurs. Don't anyone mention the dinosaurs.
The Liberal policies will be made clear soon enough. But yeah, the Cons have been pretty much at a loss of what to do with themselves. They had their original five items which they didn't really complete. Hospital wait times was dropped early on and just not mentioned much until everyone just forgot about it. The surgery guarrantees were longer than the existing times so no one was impressed. And they only did part of their accountability act. All the things that Gomery suggested they do, they didn't, so that was a bust. They were against gifting Senate seats and unelected parliamentry positions and floor crossings without a by-election but immediatly popped Fortier into Public Works (home of AdScam) and a Senate Seat (but he seldon attends, just collects the pay) and Emerson who promised to be the CONs worst enemy, got a cabinet position and immeditely sold us out on our softwood lumber to the US and padded the republican party coffers with $1billion. I don't know if it was CA or US $ though. Sure enough, seven months later they were back wanting more.
Then they porogued parliament at the last moment, cancelling everything that was on hold including their oh, so, important crime bills. Then they come back with a Throne Speech and announce that everything in the Speech is a matter of Confidence. WTF...how amature are these guys really? They can only play at being a government. And the list goes on...
[updated Sat May 17 09:55:28 EDT 2008]
17 May 09:55
MRM
Can you please remind me again exactly what the Cretien and Martin governments accomplished in 13 years? When a government makes promises during a campaign they do so with the expectation that they will have a majority to implement those promises. It seems that it is unrealistic to expect the Tories to make all the changes that they would like when they do not have the seats to do so, particularly when faced with the most obstructionist opposition in Canadian political history. Canadians know this and next time will not make the same mistake and give them a solid majority.
[updated Sat May 17 10:14:20 EDT 2008]
17 May 10:14
How about balancing the federal budget, left in ruins by the Cons. How about signing on to Kyoto, along with 150 or so other countries. How about credible child care and a meaningful deal to help Aboriginals (Kelowna). Ooops. All of which were scuttled by the CONs.
Obstructionist Parliament? Excuse me? Much to my dismay, the Liberals have propped up the CONs on the disastrous Afghanistan war (budget, anti-terrorism, crime, etc.). You can't have it both ways. Especially since it is the CONs who are walking out on and filibustering the committees. They even have a Machiavelian playbook to teach their poodles how to do it.
[updated Sat May 17 15:32:46 EDT 2008]
17 May 15:32
MRM
Balancing the deficit left by Trudeau? Sorry but under funding programs and overtaxing working Canadians to create huge surpluses so that you can reward your friends and give your personal business huge tax breaks is not a noble act. It is greed and it is dishonest plain and simple. I will give them credit for Kyoto. Not for signing an incredibly bad deal but for having the good sense to then not implement it. Kelowna was also a monumentally bad deal for working Canadians and an affront to democracy not to mention a legal precedent that would have all but bankrupted us and ruined confederation. The childcare plan was a multi-billion $ waste of taxpayer’s money.
Propped up? You mean they don’t have the courage to vote for what few principals they thought that they had. That is why I call them obstructionist. They block legislation in the house and Senate and obstruct committees until something comes to a vote. Then they gutlessly stand up and vote for what they apparently do not agree with. Or they walk out or do not show up for the vote. The LPC has been reduced to joke status under Dion even among the most die hard of Liberal supporters. Talk about poodles – sit Stephan sit – good dog.
[updated Sat May 17 22:22:58 EDT 2008]
17 May 22:22
MRM, are you for real? Chretien took over from Mulroney, not Trudeau. Neither PM Chretien nor Martin made any personal gain from their stewardship and I defy you to prove otherwise. The Tories are the Greed Party Personified. What are you talking about?
How was Kelowna bad for working Canadians? How would it have bankrupted and ruined Canada? Hyperbole maybe?
You've had free reign on this site for too long. Go somewhere else. Where your like/feeble minded spins might hold more sway.
.
[updated Sun May 18 00:24:56 EDT 2008]
18 May 00:24
Georgine
MRM, you are from Alberta and still pissed about the NEP, right?
And you do know that rsharp is right, Chretien took over from (well actually from Kim Campbell, remember her?) Lyin' Brian "he bugs us still" Mulroney. That was when the Progressive Conservatives went from having the largest majority in history (2 elections back) to having only 2 seats in the house and the reason the Bloc came into existence.
Were you old enough to vote then or are you about Pierre's age? This stuff is like, ancient history, right? Do you have a sticker book too, like his?
Tell me, what else did Flanagan say in his book...about the IN & OUT SCAM?
[updated Sun May 18 02:29:28 EDT 2008]
18 May 02:29
MRM
Nope, never lived in Alberta, born and raised in Ontario. I don't know why you and rsharp keep telling me who Cretien took over from? I never said any different? That does not alter the fact that Mulroney took over the Trudeau deficit and yes I was old enough to vote, not that it matters. I'm sure that you can find someone else to read Flanagan's book to you that will interpret it in terms that you will like much more than I would?
[updated Sun May 18 04:15:32 EDT 2008]
18 May 04:15
MRM
Yeah and Mulroney took the deficit over from Trudeau. I have already proven that Martin gained personally from his position as FM. You remember, the last time you "defied" me to prove otherwise and then did not answer as you are accustomed to doing but here it is again:
“Throughout the 1990s, CSL Group Inc. oversaw the reflagging of several former Canadian-registered vessels which were placed under the shipping registries of nations commonly referred to as flags of convenience, where safety and labour laws were relaxed to be more business-friendly, resulting in the loss of many Canadian jobs. This was often criticized by Martin's political opponents. In 2000 Martin faced more criticism after CSL made a reported $20 million but did not pay any taxes.”
“On December 12, 2003 Martin becomes the 21st Prime Minister of Canada. On January 28, 2004 the federal government, in response to opposition party and media enquiries, revealed that CSL Group Inc. had received $162 million in federal government contracts, grants and loans since Paul Martin became Minister of Finance in 1993. Earlier figures released in 2003 had suggested CSL Group Inc. had only earned $137,000 in federal government contracts during this time “period. Source – CBC archives.
The Kelowna Accord was bad for working Canadians because it was done for all the wrong reasons and designed to buy votes. It had a $5B price tag and would have set a legal precedent for land claims across the country costing far more than that. And of course none of the costs were budgeted for in budget following the agreement which, like Kyoto likely means that the Liberals never intended to honour it anyway. It also gave special status to aboriginals that placed them outside the Canadian judicial system and exempted them from the Canadian Constitutional Framework.
If by free reign you mean being able to express my opinion without fear that some “feeble minded” ignoramus would silence me then you are right, I have had free reign. If you don’t like that then maybe you should go somewhere else where your left wing diatribe will hold more sway? I’m staying right here.
[updated Sun May 18 03:59:01 EDT 2008]
18 May 03:59
MRM, did Paul Martin act dishonestly in any way for personal gain as PM? When and what? If you can't prove your smear, retract it. If you won't retract it, guess what that makes you.
Kelowna was a deal of historical significance. Aboriginals were here first. We took their land, in many cases savagely. There is such a thing as making amends, no matter the time periods.
[updated Sun May 18 09:08:29 EDT 2008]
18 May 09:08
MRM
OK, this is the third time that you have challenged me to prove the same thing. I do and then you do not respond. Read my last post. So I guess it is OK by you that he is a dishonest FM as long he is not a dishonest PM? What a bizarre thought process that is? Well a skunk doesn’t loose his stripe just because he changes holes. Even though he sold his interests in CSL to his sons when he became PM he continued to personally profit form the money he had already looted from taxpayers when he gave unsolicited government contracts and “special tax status” to CSL while FM.
I didn’t take anyone’s land? Besides we can all trace our roots back to some oppression or mistreatment in our ancestral homelands so it is time to get over it and all live together as equals. We will not solve our differences by making two separate legal systems and exempting a segment of society from the country’s constitutional framework.
[updated Sun May 18 14:55:06 EDT 2008]
18 May 14:55
MRM, I keep challenging you because you accuse Mr. Martin of dishonest conduct when there isn't a shred of evidence. He's not even under investigation.
Does the term "First Nations" ring a bell with you? We invaded and stole their land. Your total lack of guilt or remorse doesn't excuse anything. It does reveal a great deal about you.
[updated Sun May 18 20:23:15 EDT 2008]
18 May 20:23
MRM
You challenge then when you have no answers you run and hide. It is not only me accusing Martin, it is every major political party and the MSM media as well as the AG. Just saying over and over ad nausea that he is a "decent and honest man" does not change the facts. Unless you have something to challenge these facts then this topic is closed. In short put up or just shut up about it.
As for first nations, like I said I did not steal anyone’s land so why should I feel guilt or remorse for something that I did not do? The fact that you have been duped into believing that all the ills in our first nation’s lives are your fault is your problem and says a great deal about you. Maybe some counseling would help?
[updated Mon May 19 01:17:44 EDT 2008]
19 May 01:17
parnel
Your continued lies and fantasies about Paul Martin tell me you are a very demented person. Your accusations about him are absolute disneyesque and plain ignorance.
[updated Mon May 19 02:40:58 EDT 2008]
19 May 02:40
MRM, when you accuse another man of dishonesty w/o proof, you dishonest yourself. When the man you accuse is as squeaky-clean as PM Martin, you only look foolish and, in fact, profoundly stupid..
[updated Mon May 19 18:59:26 EDT 2008]
19 May 18:59
MRM
I'll ignore the stupid remark. I would respond in kind but I promised Nik that I would show restraint. Besides that would only prompt you to feign indignation once again with a remark like “MRM your repeated name-calling defines you”. Remember that little ditty? I guess not?
I have given you the facts over and over and as usual the only defence you can muster is the "he’s an honest guy" defence without actually addressing the issues by offering any proof. Instead I guess you figure that if you have no defense to offer that you will attack. Once again the facts are part of the public record. Do you deny that:
1. He personally gained financially when he moved his company offshore in order to avoid paying taxes and in the process put thousands of Canadians out of work and in the process needlessly endangering those in other countries working for him just so that he could enrich himself. Specifically:
“Throughout the 1990s, CSL Group Inc. oversaw the reflagging of several former Canadian-registered vessels which were placed under the shipping registries of nations commonly referred to as flags of convenience, where safety and labour laws were relaxed to be more business-friendly, resulting in the loss of many Canadian jobs. This was often criticized by Martin's political opponents.” (source – CBC Archives)
2. He was personally gained financially when as FM:
“In 2000 Martin faced more criticism after CSL made a reported $20 million but did not pay any taxes.” (source – CBC Archives)
3. He abused his position of trust as FM and attempted to deceive Parliament when:
“On January 28, 2004 the federal government, in response to opposition party and media enquiries, revealed that CSL Group Inc. had received $162 million in federal government contracts, grants and loans since Paul Martin became Minister of Finance in 1993. Earlier figures released in 2003 had suggested CSL Group Inc. had only earned $137,000 during this time period.” (source – CBC Archives)
So unless you actually want to address these items of public record then just shut up about the whole thing. Calling me names and saying Martin is an honest guy is hardly a vigorous defence. If that is best you can offer tthen you (and Martin) are better off if you just drop the whole thing. I am sure that he would be less than thrilled to have you and your twin defending him anyway. If in fact that is what you two are trying to do?
[updated Tue May 20 00:05:08 EDT 2008]
20 May 00:05
parnel
MRM... don't ignore the remark:"I'll ignore the stupid remark."
Its pertinent.
Your continued libeling of Paul Martin comes from very biased sources via the CBC. Shipping companies always move their businesses offshore as that is the most effective way to be competitive. If they are not competitive they go out of business but that doesn't bother populists since we are all only 6000 years old.
Secondly, when was Martin ever censored by the federal ombudsman or the Auditor general or parliament who all have free reign to monitor these things.
Your complete ignorance of real facts overshadows the other comment made by another poster.
Now you show us the proof he robbed the Canadian taxpayer or simpy ran his business that employed many hundreds of Canadians who did pay income taxes as employees of CSL.
[updated Tue May 20 04:53:00 EDT 2008]
20 May 04:53
MRM
I have already shown you the proof but you refuse to see it. If you want to see it again go back and read my past posts on the subject. You on the other hand have offered nothing tangible in his defence. Maybe some other shipping companies do move off shore to avoid taxes but others do not. They stay here and contribute back to the country that enabled them to succeed in the first place instead of ripping off its taxpayers by continuing to accept money from them while dodging taxes. In the end it is still tax avoidance and that sort of conduct should not be tolerated in a Senior Minister of Parliament.
Once again you show just what a mindless hypocrite that you really are. You continually launch vile personal and libelous attacks against the FM accusing him of theft over Income Trusts when that was a perfectly legal act of parliament, which the Liberals voted in favour of by the way, but when a FM’s company mysteriously pays no taxes, gets $162M in contracts and grants but only sees fit to report 137K of that to Parliament you seem to think that is OK. I guess that this just makes you a typical Liberal who figures that it is OK to steal taxpayer’s money as long it is a Liberal doing it. Like Jack Layton says there is culture of abuse where the Liberals figure the treasury is their personal piggy bank (ala Adscam).
Here is an extract of an article from your friends at the G&M form back in 2004:
“Paul Martin is the majority owner of Canada Steamship Lines (a corporation that Maurice Strong helped the Martin family to acquire). Most of the ships (largely bulk carriers, many self-unloading) owned by CSL are registered in the Bahamas. CSL had been involved in a long row of very bitter labour disputes for mistreating and exploiting its employees. The associated strikes, litigation and demonstrations had religiously been kept out of the Canadian media. Some of those strikes took place in Australia. They made the news there but not in Canada.
When Paul Martin was to become prime minister, the question was raised whether he would be able to keep himself at arms length from CSL. He admitted to CSL having received $137,000 from the federal government. It later emerged that he slightly understated that figure. The total of federal grants and loans received by CSL during Paul Martin's term as finance minister runs to $161 million.
All three opposition parties fired a barrage of questions about $161 million in government contracts won by Canada Steamship Lines Ltd. over the last decade. The company's decision to base its international affiliate in Barbados for tax reasons also found its way into opposition crosshair.
Amongst other things, Paul Martin's CSL supplies virtually all of the road ballast used in the eastern USA — good old Canadian bedrock, far more solid than the Canadian Liberal Party's politician's reputation."
If you want to see where the AG reported on these irregularities read the AG 2004 Report.
[updated Tue May 20 09:30:17 EDT 2008]
20 May 09:30
What improper, dishonest or criminal act did Mr Martin commit? Else, forever hold your peace. Fat chance of that, to "He who always must get the Last Shot In."
[updated Thu May 22 22:51:05 EDT 2008]
22 May 22:51
MRM
What part of my last post did you not undertsand? I just listed all of the " improper, dishonest or criminal acts" in detail. You keep asking the same question and I keep giving you the same answer. You obviously have no answer for the allegations made against him, not by me, but by the MSM, the Opposition (all parties) and the AG because you know them to be true.
[updated Fri May 23 08:39:32 EDT 2008]
23 May 08:39
I am sorry you find me to be a vile hypocrite. Yet, I ask again, name a single dishonest or criminal act committed by Paul Martin?
That his former company conducted business like any business doesn't cut it.
Switch topics MRM.
[updated Fri May 23 22:02:09 EDT 2008]
23 May 22:02
MRM
First of all I did not call you a “vile hypocrite” but had I it would pale in comparison to some of the names you have attributed to me. I did however say that some of your comments were vile and I did call you a hypocrite. I stand by that assertion and have plenty of proof to back it up. One need look no further than your last post as another example of hypocrisy. You tell me to switch topics but it is you who will not let this issue die. In fact it is you and parnel who keep resurrecting the subject and you specifically who raised it in this discussion. If you don’t want to talk about it quit bringing it up. I will switch topics when you move on.
While as much as companies would like the benefit of having their majority shareholder as FM so that they can get "special" tax status (no taxes) and preferential access to huge government grants, this is not “conducting business like any other business.” No matter how you spin it. So once again the “dishonest and criminal acts” that you keep demanding are:
1. He personally gained financially when he moved his company offshore in order to avoid paying taxes and in the process put thousands of Canadians out of work, needlessly endangering those in other countries working for him just so that he could enrich himself. Specifically:
“Throughout the 1990s, CSL Group Inc. oversaw the reflagging of several former Canadian-registered vessels which were placed under the shipping registries of nations commonly referred to as flags of convenience, where safety and labour laws were relaxed to be more business-friendly, resulting in the loss of many Canadian jobs. This was often criticized by Martin's political opponents.” (source – CBC Archives)
2. He personally gained financially when as FM:
“In 2000 Martin faced more criticism after CSL made a reported $20 million but did not pay any taxes.” (source – CBC Archives)
3. He abused his position of trust as FM and attempted to deceive Parliament when:
“On January 28, 2004 the federal government, in response to opposition party and media enquiries, revealed that CSL Group Inc. had received $162 million in federal government contracts, grants and loans since Paul Martin became Minister of Finance in 1993. Earlier figures released in 2003 had suggested CSL Group Inc. had only earned $137,000 during this time period.” (source – CBC Archives)
So unless you actually want to challenge these items of public record by offering some proof to counter them then just shut up about the whole thing. Calling me names and just saying Martin is an honest guy is hardly a vigorous defence. If that is best you can offer then you (and Martin) are better off if you just drop the whole thing.
[updated Fri May 23 23:12:06 EDT 2008]
23 May 23:12
k. What was dishonest or criminal about any of that by Mr. Martin? You don't seem to get it?
[updated Fri May 23 23:28:50 EDT 2008]
23 May 23:28
Georgine
So when is the court date? When is Martin going to jail? What exactly are the charges? Share all the rest of this info with us...you seem to know everything else....from the glowball no less.
[updated Fri May 23 23:36:46 EDT 2008]
23 May 23:36
MRM
You both do not seem to get it. If you don't see anything wrong that sort of conduct from a senior officer of parliament from at least an ethical perspective then you both should check your moral compass because it is way off.
Alas, despite the insistance of the opposition at the time, most notably the NDP, there will be no charges since the majority Liberals of the day refused to take any action. Unless of course the Tories choose to do to him what the Liberlas tried to do to Mulroney but since that backfired on the Grits and the Ethics Committee is dominated by the Opposition I am not hopeful. To bad really.
[updated Fri May 23 23:53:34 EDT 2008]
23 May 23:53
parnel
More MRM garbage and slanted propaganda.
[updated Sat May 24 06:54:49 EDT 2008]
24 May 06:54
MRM
The garbage is your response. Once again I will take your inability to counter the public record as proof that I am right.
[updated Sat May 24 08:42:51 EDT 2008]
24 May 08:42
parnel
Your idea of a public record is to be as selective as you can be to twist facts to your lower tastes that are really lies and innuendos.
[updated Sat May 24 10:45:07 EDT 2008]
24 May 10:45
MRM
Typically, anyone with a different point of view is open to personal attack and any fact that you have no answer for is a lie. If you are the best that the Liberals can come up with a majority is assured.
[updated Sun May 25 03:41:05 EDT 2008]
25 May 03:41
parnel
You proved nothing about Martin except the fantasy you play out in your own mind. You only proved you are able to libel a former FM.
[updated Mon May 19 03:17:23 EDT 2008]
19 May 03:17
MRM
Thanks, the fact that all you can muster is this nonsense to counter the case put forward proves that I am right. You have not been able to offer one piece of evidence to counter the allegations. All you can do is drone on about how honest a PM he was without offering any factual evidence to support it. That and a buck will get you a cup of coffee but is not worth much else.
[updated Mon May 19 08:07:13 EDT 2008]
19 May 08:07
parnel
What facts have you issued about Martin that are not some fabricated and deluded nonsense about tax changes he supposedly made just for his company. You are even more delusional than I thought...but then again you are a tory wanker.
[updated Mon May 19 14:06:29 EDT 2008]
19 May 14:06
MRM
Like your twin, the only defense that you can offer is mindless, juvenile name calling. Given the context used in your last post I doubt that you even know what the term wanker actually means.
[updated Tue May 20 00:11:26 EDT 2008]
20 May 00:11
parnel
Was Paul Martin ever charged with anything related to his business or anything for that matter? Other than a bunch of press clippings that could have been planted by anyone you have innuendo and rumour as your basis.
Give your a** a shake(that's where your brain is)
[updated Sun May 25 06:19:50 EDT 2008]
25 May 06:19
parnel
More of your slanted garbage I see. The program cuts i the early part of Chretien's first mandate were absolutely necessary as the Country's debt position was becoming very precarious and we were about to be become a theird world nation in terms of debt. All of this came from the outrageous deficits that mulroney had created....$43 billion in 1993 dollars or about $105 billion in 2008 dollars. Add that up as a piece of our GNP and see why temporary program cuts were absolutely needed.
The liberal childcare plan was signed by all provinces and it was determined it was avery good national plan by most pundits. Right wing types like to have women barefoot pregnant and in the kitchen and that's why Harper killed it;his ultra right wing funders demanded it.
The part of the LPC being joke status was very evident in yesterday's poll put out by Nick. The Libs have inched ahead of the sorry Tories. They block legislation in the house because its of such poor quality.
Your continued digusting lies about Paul Martin are typical of your demented political thinking. Why don't you discuss Mulroney taking 300K in cash from a lobbyist while still in office? That's the real crook you ae in denial about.
[updated Sat May 24 06:53:30 EDT 2008]
24 May 06:53
MRM
OK, I will correct my comment about the LPC being reduced to joke status. It is more accurately the leader who has been reduced to joke status, even amongst the most ardent of Liberal supporters.
[updated Sat May 24 08:44:29 EDT 2008]
24 May 08:44
parnel
The newset joke is the fact that Harper's party is now behind in the polls against a party that has a so clled loser as leader. Harper has the force of government to use as weapons and he can't even do that properly.
The Liberals are moving ahead in the polls...that's my counter argument.The joke is on you. Good government is going to return to Canada
[updated Sat May 24 10:47:54 EDT 2008]
24 May 10:47
MRM
The newest joke is that the Tories are seven points up on the Grits! Good government is already here and Canadians know it.
[updated Sun May 25 19:10:40 EDT 2008]
25 May 19:10
parnel
where's the link or have you not twisted the facts on it yet
[updated Sun May 25 19:18:18 EDT 2008]
25 May 19:18
MRM
Find it yourself. It will give you something to do instead of gutter sniping.
[updated Sun May 25 19:22:59 EDT 2008]
25 May 19:22
parnel
No current poll shown in the TO star as of right now..so I must assume once again that you have dredged up some other BS because your credibility here is zero.
[updated Sun May 25 19:32:29 EDT 2008]
25 May 19:32
MRM
Whether I have any credibility with you is of little consequence to me. I'll give you a hint. It starts with an Angus and ends with a Reid. Surely even you should be able to find it now?
[updated Sun May 25 19:53:39 EDT 2008]
25 May 19:53
MRM
I know that once you find it you will do the right thing and appologize for hurting my feelings?
[updated Sun May 25 20:08:44 EDT 2008]
25 May 20:08
parnel
Chretien had a majority government for his full tenure....Harper can only ever have wet dreams about that as he won't even get a second minority term. That's what the Liberals accomplished and of course you will say the Canadian people were stupid voting for him that long. And your IQ is?
[updated Sun May 18 02:27:58 EDT 2008]
18 May 02:27
MRM
I suspect that you are as astute about this topic as you were about the Cadman Affair. By the way my IQ was high enough to be right on that one. To bad for you that you cannot say the same.
[updated Sun May 18 04:18:35 EDT 2008]
18 May 04:18
parnel
The fact there are no criminal charges yet does not mean its over. There are going to be civil suits coming up. You IQ couldn't tie my shoes and you were probably some messenger boy in the military.
[updated Sun May 18 18:46:23 EDT 2008]
18 May 18:46
MRM
Hey genius, is this your clever way of calling me stupid. The problem with this tactic is that you are not smart enough to not attach some juvenile comment about me with it. Which of couse just shows how weak minded and immature you actually are. You are right about one thing though, there will be lawsuits. The first one will be this year when the LPC gets its ass sued off by the PM. This will result in a public appology and a big Liberal payout to the Tories not to mention the huge legal fees which will further drive the hapless grit's finances into the red.
[updated Sun May 18 19:33:41 EDT 2008]
18 May 19:33
parnel
I guarantee you Harper crite will not allow that issue to get to court. It will simply die. He wants it off the front pages that badly.
[updated Mon May 19 03:19:09 EDT 2008]
19 May 03:19
MRM
Well we all know how accurate your predicitions are on this topic don't we?
[updated Mon May 19 07:56:21 EDT 2008]
19 May 07:56
parnel
Just because the mounties have decided not to lay charges you take that as gospel.....try asking the guys who spent years in jail for wrongful convictions how accurate and fair the system is. And lastly the RCMP is now ruled by one of Harper's loyalists. Why is Harper crite still afraid to answer questions in the house about Cadman. He's protected there.
[updated Mon May 19 14:09:35 EDT 2008]
19 May 14:09
MRM
No charges because there is no evidence just like I and others told you would happen weeks ago. Like I also told you - you were wrong and now have no credibility on this issue so go talk to yourself or your twin about it. No one else is listening.
[updated Tue May 20 00:16:26 EDT 2008]
20 May 00:16
Georgine
It's not dead and it's not going to go away. Just wait a little while, Be patient.
[updated Fri May 23 23:43:55 EDT 2008]
23 May 23:43
MRM
Well we agree on something anyway Georgine. It is definately not going away. The next phase will be the LPC getting their asses sued off followed by a public appology and big payout to the CPC. That and the huge legal bill will put the Big Red Machine further into the red both financially and in the polls.
[updated Fri May 23 23:59:18 EDT 2008]
23 May 23:59
parnel
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080523.liberals24/BNStory/National/home
Maybe this will shut you up about liberal finances. The party is ahead in the polls and is now organizing for the next election after which you will be moaning once again about Liberals in power while your lifestyle actually improves as it always does under well managed Liberal rule.
[updated Sat May 24 06:57:18 EDT 2008]
24 May 06:57
MRM
Not a chance. They are statistically tied in the last poll, hence the title of Nik’s article “Liberals and Conservatives neck and neck” but this has zip to do with their party finances. Aside from the huge central debt the party is being crushed under they have another impending dilemma on their hands. It will be interesting to see how their friends at EC handle this one? It goes something like this:
“Within the next couple of weeks, all the former Liberal leadership candidates have to submit an updated accounting of their campaign debts — most importantly, how they're going to pay off the big loans they received. The Star reported on this over the past week. The rough tally of that combined debt, as of March (the last time we received publicly available numbers), is about $2.8-million — an estimated $800,000 of that belongs to leader Stéphane Dion. Any leadership candidate who doesn't have a rigorous plan to pay off those loans will then find that they are deemed as "contributions" and thus in violation of Elections Canada law, limiting each donation to $1,100 per person in a leadership contest. (And by the way, that extends over years; someone who gave $1,100 to Dion in 2006 can't give him $1,100 in 2008 to help pay off his loans.) “ (Source – Susan Delacourt at the Star – 16 May 2008)
They also face the prospect of huge legal bills from a number of impending lawsuits that will only compound their already dire financial situation.
[updated Sat May 24 08:36:59 EDT 2008]
24 May 08:36
parnel
Mor slanted and stupid comments. Read the G&M article today and tell me the party is in the state you portray it to be.
Your lieing and cheating on news reports is so bad you make Harper the liar and briber look good in comparsion.
[updated Sat May 24 10:50:38 EDT 2008]
24 May 10:50
parnel
Ah taking little victories wehre you can find them. When I previously stated they were effectively tied you poo pooed that. What a BS artist you are.
The liberals, in Nick's poll, are 1% ahead and not 3% behind or dead even as per the previous poll he did. And yes that is a statistical tie, but one favouring the LIBS.
[updated Sat May 24 10:53:59 EDT 2008]
24 May 10:53
MRM
Tories 34% - Grits 27%, Harper 32% - Dion 10%. Little victories indeed.
[updated Sun May 25 20:17:22 EDT 2008]
25 May 20:17
hollinm
parnel...you ar so full of s..t. Who asks the questions day after day in QP about faux scandals. It is your party who can't get out of the gutter because that is all they know. They have no policies and the one in the window now i.e. carbon tax will go down in flames. Does Dion honestly believe they are going to allow him to destroy the economy and tax them to death at the same time?
You get upset because Harper digs at the Liberals in QP. I guess its alright for the Liberals because they are the side of the angels to call Harper all kinds of names but that mean Mr. Harper better not attack our poor doofus of a leader.
[updated Thu May 15 17:28:45 EDT 2008]
15 May 17:28
parnel
the gutter politics of the right begets even more gutter talk...don't you ever get the message or are you that constipated?
[updated Sat May 17 18:21:51 EDT 2008]
17 May 18:21
MRM
holinm - parnels comments are proof that nonsense begets even more nonsense. That said we can be thankful that he is a very highly valued Liberal advisor.
[updated Sat May 17 22:30:43 EDT 2008]
17 May 22:30
parnel
MRM,
You only wish I was a Liberal advisor and not the Joe Q public guy I really am. I am part of the Canadian majority who detest Harper and his gang of do nothing liars, bribers and cheaters. They are quickly becoming the most inept government in a very long time and that says something after Paul Martin's fiasco as PM. He was the best FM ever though.
[updated Sun May 18 02:32:53 EDT 2008]
18 May 02:32
MRM
Yes I do wish very much that you were an advisor to the 28% Liberal "majority". CSL agrees with you about Martin being the best FM ever. Hopefully we will never see another like him. We just can't afford it.
[updated Sun May 18 04:21:24 EDT 2008]
18 May 04:21
parnel
More BS from a sorry loser
[updated Sun May 18 18:47:02 EDT 2008]
18 May 18:47
MRM
Wow , what a witty zinger that was!
[updated Tue May 20 00:19:54 EDT 2008]
20 May 00:19
parnel
http://www.mapleleafweb.com/old/education/spotlight/issue_29/csl.html?q=education/spotlight/issue_29/csl.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/martin_paul/businessinterests.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Martin
An excerpt:
"In March 1991, following changes to Canada's taxation laws regarding international earnings, CSL backed away from threats to move its headquarters outside of Canada, however in December the president who replaced Martin resigned in opposition to plans to move international operations outside the country."
If I remember correctly the government in power at the time was headed
( figuratively speaking) by Mulroney and many many other Companies had threatened to move out if the laws were not changed.
Under the Mulroney government CSL had received over $82MM in federal subsidies and that grew incremently through the years. Those subsidies were all legitimate in order to keep one of the last Canadian owned shipping Companies left in Canada and who were creating many jobs at shipyards and in the head office,etc. .
Here's another pice from Wikepedia whom MRM likes to quote..selectively for sure
"After the Liberals formed the government, Martin was chosen as Minister of Finance by Prime Minister Chrétien, and appointed by Governor General Raymond Hnatyshyn. At the time, Canada had one of the highest annual deficits of the G7 countries. As finance minister, Martin erased a $42 billion deficit, recorded five consecutive budget surpluses, and paid down $36 billion of national debt.
During his tenure as finance minister Martin was responsible for lowering Canada's debt-to-GDP ratio from a peak of seventy per cent to about fifty per cent in the mid-1990s. In December 2001, he was named as a member of the World Economic Forum's "dream cabinet."[4] The global business and financial body listed Martin along with United States Secretary of State Colin Powell and United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan as top world leaders.
All the attacks on his CSL ownership were simply typical opposition junk and nothing was ever proven or even taken to higher levels which shows me that you slant things to suit your purposes.
I think your garbage attacks on one of Canada's best ever public servants is as low as they come and reflects your demented mindset.
[updated Sun May 25 07:34:08 EDT 2008]
25 May 07:34
MRM
I love it when you try and prove your case and end up just proving mine!
So what if while Mulroney was PM CSL threatened to move their HQ offshore if the tax laws were not changed? CSL did receive 82m in subsidies from the Mulroney government in an effort to keep them here but Martin moved them anyway, after taking all that money from taxpayers to stay. This was done in 1991 while Martin was still an active participant in company operations as a Board member? (While he gave up Pres and CEO in 1988 he did not put his shares in trust until Feb, 1994). This still does not negate the fact that CSL received 162m in government subsidies while Martin was FM and paid almost no taxes, all the while with no operations in Canada.
That still has zip to do with the fact that they moved all the rest of their company offshore putting thousands of Canadians out of work. Who cares where their head office is? It has nothing to do with the point that this is unethical conduct for a member of parliament.
“By the mid-1980s, CSL's only remaining shipyard (Collingwood) was undergoing financial difficulties and was closed on September 12, 1986 with the loss of 800 jobs. At the same time, CSL Group Inc.'s expansion outside of Canada was well underway.” (Source: Fin Post)
More from the Financial Post:
PM's company got outrageous, obscene tax breaks
by Diane Francis, Financial Post
January 15, 2004
“It's heartening to see that Prime Minister Paul Martin kissed and made up with President George Bush this week. But Mr. Martin remains more politically vulnerable north of the border than most people realize. That's because he has paid dramatically lower taxes for years than have other Canadians.
In fact, the Prime Minister should be called the "two-per-cent man" because his sizeable steamship company pays only 2% corporate income taxes, thanks to a tax privilege he perpetuated as finance minister. Meanwhile, large domestic Canadian corporations pay 24% federal corporate income taxes plus between 12.5% and 17% in provincial taxes for a total of between 36.5% and 41%, according to government documents.
Ironically, Mr. Martin received a standing ovation after his first budget as finance minister on Feb. 22, 1994, when he pledged to stop the tax drain from the use of offshore tax havens. Then in June, 1994, the fine print of his policy closed loopholes in Liberia and other countries but left them intact in Barbados and four others. Mr. Martin switched his operations for tax purposes from Liberia to Barbados shortly afterward. So Mr. Martin announced a tax crackdown on companies using tax havens, except for his own.
The Barbados tax loophole is totally legal, but its morality is another matter. Last year, the Auditor General of Canada attacked the practice for what it is -- unduly costly to the federal treasury and unjustifiably unfair and unequal treatment. Mr. Martin's business, Canada Steamship Lines (CSL), is headquartered in Barbados, a tax haven with roughly 2% corporate income tax rates.”
On the issue of the deficit I have never said that he did not deserve some credit for getting rid of it. Just not all of the credit like you to attribute to him. He inherited the deficit from Trudeau and its elimination was a joint Mulroney / Chrétien effort. Here are the facts on deficit reduction under both governments:
“Although the Liberals - and Paul Martin in particular - get pretty much all the credit for finally conquering the federal government deficit, they really only deserve about half of it. Slaying the deficit dragon required transforming an operating deficit of -3% of GDP to a surplus of 6% during the period 1984-2000. The Mulroney government turned the -3% deficit into a 2% surplus before the 1991-2 world wide recession brought it back down again. The Liberals are to be congratulated for finishing the job - but then again, they were the ones who had created the problem in the first place.” (Source – CanadianContent)
Thanks for helping me make my point.
[updated Sun May 25 10:20:26 EDT 2008]
25 May 10:20
parnel
Slant slant slant....Dianne Francis is the antithesis of a good reporter. Give your head a shake.
I proved your point is as stupid as you continue to make it. There are all sorts of isues that you are simply uinaware of as someone who has never been in business. The fact remains that the subsidies, the off shore moves, and other things were done b/f Martin was in office. You haven't dwelled on the fact the Bronfman family moved billions out of Canada tax free under Mulroney. You haven't looked at the business reasons why a company like CSL would move offshore. In other words you are simply an absolute bigot and too stupid to unserstand real logic. That's why you're a tory and in a small minority in this Country.
You are actually too dumb to recognize a fact when it hits you in the a** where your brain is.
Your BS about another stint as a civilian in Afghanistan and making it sound dangerous or patriotic is pure bunk;its all about the money you will make stupid because the miliary only ever paid you according to your IQ.
You will be inside a fort Knox type fortified camp and as a civilian you'll probably never leave. I know how those contracts work.
[updated Sun May 25 10:37:27 EDT 2008]
25 May 10:37
MRM
The public record is clear, CSL received $162B in subsidies while Martin was FM, not to mention huge tax breaks not afforded to others. Your childish rants and vicious name calling will not change that fact. Typically, because you cannot defend your position your resort to this sort of garbage. Grow up.
[updated Sun May 25 10:55:57 EDT 2008]
25 May 10:55
parnel
then its still fair game to say Harper bribed Cadman or attempted to as his voice was on the tape,,,,but you say because the RCMP laid no charges he's innocent. What a BS artist......disgusting.
[updated Sun May 25 11:55:41 EDT 2008]
25 May 11:55
MRM
You can say what ever you want but like every other issue; you called this one wrong as well. You are singularly ill informed on pretty much every issue. Quite an accomplishment! Just like you profess to know what is going on if Afghanistan. If you actually did, you would know that there is no need for contracted security inside Canadian camps, the military handles that quite well. That said they are not as safe as you erroneously claim. Anyone watching the news in last few days where we saw a road show performing come under mortar attack inside the Canadian compound can attest to this fact. I am not even going over on a Canadian contract, it is a UN contract. The rest of your childish rant is not worthy of comment.
[updated Sun May 25 13:24:10 EDT 2008]
25 May 13:24
parnel
I know more than you think about what goes on in Khandahar. I have consultants there on the ground who report almost daily to our JV office.
As for the rest of your garbage all I can say is that the UN must be desperate.
[updated Sun May 25 14:44:58 EDT 2008]
25 May 14:44
MRM
Yeah sure you do. I have caught you in so many times making things up I can't believe anything you say but you if you do know as much as you profess to, you hide it well in with your misinformed comments.
[updated Sun May 25 16:13:25 EDT 2008]
25 May 16:13
parnel
Its obvious that you cannot stand being challenged on your many phoney beliefs driven by reading press releases. Its not only myself that goes after your ignorant and very slanted stuff in case you hadn't noticed. Others are more polite but I don't think you deserve even that. People who misinform are the wrost kind IMHO.
My misinformed comments? That's the best line yet but we know its simply frustration that your credibility is challenged on every post.
[updated Sun May 25 16:21:56 EDT 2008]
25 May 16:21
MRM
You flatter yourself. You really have not been much of a challenge. More a source of entertainment. You are like a wind up toy. I like to wind you up and watch you go. Then I just sit back and watch you trip yourself up with made up "facts" and stupid statements. You are what makes being on this blog all worthwhile! Thanks for the comic relief. It would be very boring here without your inane discourse, as nasty as it is.
[updated Sun May 25 16:33:16 EDT 2008]
25 May 16:33
hollinm
parnel has been reduced to calling people names because he has nothing to counter.
Now they are on the band wagon that Harper is a bully etc. etc. Look at rsharp's response to me about Harper. I will not even dignify his tirade with a response. It is pure nonsense and shows how extreme some people can get in their thinking.
The columns on the carbon tax over the weekend were not very favourable to Liberals. Particularly when they quoted previous comments of Dion saying carbon taxes were wrong and he promised Alberta particularly that he would be the best friend Alberta ever had. Beware of Liberals bearing gifts. We will see what the next polls say about the Liberal party.
I expect questions about Dion's leadership will result in him polling even lower (if that's possible) based on his comment your wallet for the planet.
With the faux scandals disappearing and the Liberals running from the carbon tax proposal there will not be much for them to talk about.
However, the carbon tax proposal was prematurely leaked by an Ontario MPP after a briefing. That has put Dion on the defensive and he will need to get the full plan out quickly and the Conservatives and all those that do not support carbon taxes will have the summer to chew it up.
So even if Dion tries to back away from the carbon tax because it is too unpopular the Conservatives will argue this is the Liberal hidden agenda. Elect Liberals and get higher taxes. It's just too delicious.
Revenue neutral my ass!
[updated Sun May 18 11:21:27 EDT 2008]
18 May 11:21
parnel
so where's Harper's knockout punch if Dion is doing so badly. 33% to Dion's 31% which is even in real terms. He has tons of religious right tithing money to keep him well stocked in attack ads that didn't do the trick last time around. Sounds to me tha tHarper the man with all the power cannot get his act together and is being seriously challenged by so called a weak opposition leader and a crooked party. must be sad days to be a tory and the fact the run is over and Harper can go back to running the NCC o some other right wing brainless organization.
I think you and your western rumps are running scared
[updated Sun May 18 18:52:17 EDT 2008]
18 May 18:52
MRM
The latest poll has Harper at 31% and Dion at 14%. More trustworthy, more competent and has a better vision for Canada by more than 2 to 1. Glad to hear you finally admit that Dion is "a weak opposition leader" and the LPC is "a crooked party."
[updated Sun May 18 19:40:12 EDT 2008]
18 May 19:40
hollinm
The ads worked great parnel. Dion has been identified by the Canadian public as a weak and indecisive leader. Check the last leadership poll done by Nik as evidence.
You are now showing your desperation by simply calling people names.
We are not sad at all other than wishing that Dion would have some balls and force an election. Then we will see who the Canadian people want for a leader. I have much confidence in my leader. Too bad you can't say the same thing.
However, wishful thinking on your part at least gives you a reason to get up each day and support a leaderless party without a vision and certainly no policies that Canadians will accept.
[updated Sun May 18 21:49:53 EDT 2008]
18 May 21:49
Hollinm, the CONs' vicious, personal attack ads against a fair and decent man who refuses to play gutter politics is not a winning strategy in Canada. Harper's mean streak will do him in.
Dion won't cause an election until Canadians want one. It's that simple.
Harper is blowing it at every turn. Afghanistan. The environment. The economy. Federal-provincial relations (Ontario, Nfld, etc.).
With the demise of Mssrs. Blair and Howard, he's the last Bush poodle!
[updated Sun May 18 22:06:16 EDT 2008]
18 May 22:06
hollinm
So you think Dion is a fair and decent man and by contrast I assume you think Mr. Harper is the opposite. You are wrong.
Harper has a lot of respect for the Liberals and what they have accomplished with their brand. He has learned by watching that Liberals are tough and you need to be tough right back. Otherwise they will make mincemeat out of you. Ask Stockwell Day about that.
As I have said before there are only two choices in the next election; Harper or Dion. Polls suggest that Harper is beating Dion on a 2:1 basis when it comes to competence, trustworthiness and leadership. Dion has not caught the imagination of Canadians and never will. He is an English challenged, nerdy appearing individual who appears weak and Canadians don't want a weak leader. They will select Harper, warts and all.
Dion has handed the election to Harper with his carbon tax proposal. The Conservatives and the NDP will eviserate the plan. Do you honestly believe Canadians are going to vote for higher taxes?
So you think he has blown it on various policy initiatives eh:
Afganistan...Dion caved and accepted extending the mission until 2011. There is no difference between the Libs and the Cons. So if you are against the war and that is your only concern then the only choice is NDP.
Environment....a carbon tax which potentially could destroy the standard of living of virtually every Canadian will not sell and certainly Dion trying to sell it in his mangled English will be the icing on the cake for the Cons.
Federal/Provincial....Harper was right on equalization. Nfld is now a have province and in effect has more fiscal capacity than Ontario now. The wind is out of Danny's sales. He sure can campaign against Harper but once again do you think Nflders are going to vote for a Dion carbon tax. I don't think so.
I don't understand the strategy of challenging the Ontario budget but if Ontario's economy tanks as it seems it will McGuinty is going to take the full brunt of it. Don't be surprised if some accommodation is reached with McGuinty.
On a side note it is interesting to see that McGuinty has not made any comments about the Dion carbon tax proposal. With the auto sector in disarray and those coal fired plants spewing GHGs increasing taxes on the auto sector and the energy sector will not make Ontarians very happy.
Bush is a lame duck now so that argument will fall really short as each month passes. You call Harper a bully with a mean streak. Well then why would you think that he is a poodle to George Bush?
It simply suits your partisan rhetoric.
You mean Dion will wait until he thinks he can win an election before forcing one. It has nothing to do with what Canadians want.
Watch the polls for the Liberals and Dion's leadership after this carbon tax proposal is seen by most Canadians. I suggest their numbers will dip significantly and that will make Dion and his carbon tax run for the hills.
[updated Mon May 19 00:37:08 EDT 2008]
19 May 00:37
parnel
You are absolutely wrong when you say Harper is beating Dion two to one........I really hope you don't believe the garbage you write.
Dion is lagging in personal opinion tallies in polls but most of that is because he is the opposition. The last opposition leader who was in front of the PM poll wise was Chretien when Muldoon self destructed and was busy taking bribes.
Harper was not on the radar screen before the last elections in terms of personal popularity. Get your facts in order and please stop trying to fool people with garbage comments like that.Taking things in context would open you mind.
[updated Mon May 19 02:46:14 EDT 2008]
19 May 02:46
hollinm
You can twist the numbers all you want and spout your own garbage. However, whether you like it or not Harper is beating Dion 2:1 in Nik's last numbers on vision, trustiworthiness and competence.
I would agree that Opposition leaders do not fair well on leadership polls but given how "terrible" Harper is doing in managing the country, according to you, Dion should be beating him hands down. You can quote history to make yourself feel better but that is the reality of the situation today whether you like it or not.
Do I detect some testiness parnel?
[updated Thu May 22 00:24:33 EDT 2008]
22 May 00:24
MRM
More poodle talk out of your manifesto handbook for closet Liberals? Last time I looked the LPC and government position on Afghanistan were the same and the Grits also voted for the budget. As for provincial relations, Ontarians are now seeing that the feds were right on the issue of business taxes and the fiscal imbalance. Even McGuinty is now agreeing with the feds on the issue of EPs. While the blowhard Williams brags about his $544M surplus, McGuinty is quick to point out that ON gives NL over $1B annually and that if they are a have Province that they should not get any EPs. At least the Feds are willing to give them 50%. On the environment, as the details of Kyoto become known, particularly the cost in relation to the benifits, support for the deal is dropping like a stone. (67% in 2002, 43% in 2007)
[updated Mon May 19 01:41:36 EDT 2008]
19 May 01:41
parnel
Dream on silly boy...the environment policy is not and will not sink like a rock. David Suzuki just came out and stated that Harper is taking us backwards on the environment issue.
The Liberals have not even tried to sell it yet and already the bully machine is at work. It won't win;the canadian people want canada to be a leader in green isues not followers and laggards like harper and his environmental bouncer Baird. Too bad the religious can't get on board for this...then again we are only 6000 years old according to them and the "them" inculdes our current PM.
The reason Kyoto "dropped like a stone" (which is BS) was because Harper put the big lie to it and people will soon be reawakened to it once again wheh they see how phoney the Harper plan really is. He managed to take Kyoto off center stage ebcause he cannot convince his right wing to support it and that will come back to haunt him.
[updated Mon May 19 02:52:57 EDT 2008]
19 May 02:52
MRM
Suzuki? Who? Or more accurately - who cares? He also slammed the NDP for their stance against the carbon tax as well. I heard him declaring that Canadians are demanding higher taxes. How out of touch is this guy? Well he is just as out of touch with reality as you are I guess? He has no credibility on the political scene in the eyes of the average Canadian, just like you have none here. If David Suzuki is the best that you can come up with in defense of higher taxes I know that we heading to a majority!
[updated Mon May 19 08:19:17 EDT 2008]
19 May 08:19
parnel
He didn't say Canadians are demanding higher taxes........he intimated they are willing to pay for a greener environment and that carbon taxes are good.
He didn't say higher;he said tax the polluters.
Then again it would be the first time you ever got it right.
[updated Mon May 19 14:12:51 EDT 2008]
19 May 14:12
MRM
OK Genius, since the polluters are everyone who drives a vehicle, heats a home or manufactures something then we would all pay higher taxes. Besides when did Suzuki become an expert on what a "good tax" is? He should stick to being an environmental kook and leave the finances to others because apparently he is about as knowledgable as you are on the subject. You are not advising him to are you? I hope so.
[updated Tue May 20 00:28:19 EDT 2008]
20 May 00:28
MRM, you state that Suzuki is a "kook." You win the name-calling award, hands down. If I was to bother to troll thru your posts, I could pull out a hundred more examples.
Clean up your act.
[updated Wed May 21 22:28:11 EDT 2008]
21 May 22:28
MRM
rsharp. - While your at it troll through your own. Like I said, people in glass houses should not throw stones. You seem to accept the nasty comments leveled by your twin at others and eagerly join in but the fray with your own nasty comments but when someone responds in kind you feign disgust and outrage. Maybe you should quit being such a hypocrite and practice what you preach before trying to be the blog's moral police. Then you might actually be taken seriously. By the way, your hero Taliban Jack had a lot less kind words to say about Suzuki than I did so why not send him an email telling him to clean up his act?
[updated Thu May 22 00:02:32 EDT 2008]
22 May 00:02
hollinm
rsharp taking offence at you calling Suzki a kook. Given the names he calls Mr. Harper and his cabinet ministers on virtually every post he has some nerve. Hypocrisy thy name is rsharp.
[updated Thu May 22 00:37:01 EDT 2008]
22 May 00:37
hollinm
Dr. Suzki better be careful. His Foundation could end up losing charitable foundation status with his blatant politiking.
[updated Thu May 22 00:35:11 EDT 2008]
22 May 00:35
hollinm
Dion's approval rating hs sunk to its lowest level yet, with nine of 10 Canadians saying they disapprove or are not sure of his performance.
Just 10% of those surveyed stand behind Dion's leadership compared to 32% for the Prime Minister.
What's worse is that the number of people who said they were unsure about Dion's performance has dropped from 46% at the end of last summer to 30% this month, meaning that Canadians are making up their minds about a leader who has had difficulties rallying his party behind him as well as communicating his party's positions to potential voters.
The fact that Dion is at 8% as a strong and decisive leader and 16% as someone who can manage the economy effectively, this is only helping Harper. This said by Mario Canseco of the Angus Reid polling firm.
Overall 34% of respondents said they would vote Conservative if an election were held tomorrow, compared to 27% who would vote Liberal.
I wanted to make sure that you saw these polling results rsharp. After all you are so quick to minimize the polls showing Harper as not doing well.
Your guy is in deep doo doo and only a miracle will save him. These polls all show a consistent trend in respect to Dion's favourablity ratings.
[updated Thu May 22 20:43:07 EDT 2008]
22 May 20:43
I can site you a hundred polls showing profound public ignorance.... just ask Americans about Saddam's involvement with WMDs and his buddy bin Laden.
With all due respect to NIk, he's asking the wrong questions when it comes to leadership. At least missing a few. Maybe I'll send him a better designed polling plan.
[updated Thu May 22 20:50:06 EDT 2008]
22 May 20:50
hollinm
This was not Nik's poll but Angus Reid. The news gets worse for Dion everyday. You and Parnel will have to go into hiding or at least wear a hood when you go out in public. It's damn right embarassing to watch the so called leader of the natural governing party not being accepted by ordinary Canadians.
Worse than John Turner. That is saying something.
[updated Thu May 22 21:09:12 EDT 2008]
22 May 21:09
holinm, Mr. Dion hasn't had his shot yet. And you ignored my points regarding the fallacy of polls and regarding the question of leadership.
I'm sorry I embarrass you.
[updated Thu May 22 21:22:03 EDT 2008]
22 May 21:22
MRM
rsharp - You are the master at ignoring points (dodging is more accurate). How pathetic it is that you are reduced to defending a leader who has the lowest approval rating of any leader in Canadian political history. You can insult the electorate all you want but they know a good leader when they see one and they also know a bad one. That is why they choose Harper by over a 3:1 margin. Dodge that on election day.
[updated Thu May 22 21:49:05 EDT 2008]
22 May 21:49
I'm sorry you find me pathetic. What I'm trying to explain is that, when the chips are down, Canadians will vote for the party with the best policies, the best leader and the best team.
Mr. Harper is alleged to lead in Category 2 (only). And it is a false lead because we aren't being asked the right questions.
Denigrate Mr. Dion all you want. Everyone else is. But not for logical reasons. Not even close.
[updated Thu May 22 22:07:35 EDT 2008]
22 May 22:07
hollinm
If Harper's policies are that bad then why is the electorate not clammering for an election?
If Dion thinks Harpers policies are that bad he has had many opportunities to bring down the government and "save the country".
You and I both know why. The electorate is satified and Dion knows he cannot win an election; even a minority government.
There is one thing that Canadians will not vote for and that is a Liberal who is promising to increase taxes and potentially destroy their livelihoods with a reckless tax and spend platform.
You say we denigrate Dion for no reason. How about the flip flops on Afghanistan? How about the flip flops on carbon taxes? How about the flip flops of threatening to bring down the government and then turtling? How about abstaining on every major vote in this parliament? I could go on but you get the drift.
Dion is not well liked by English Canada but in Quebec he is hated.
So let Dion bring on the smoke and mirrors of a carbon tax, revenue neutrality, cap and trade system and whatever other big socialistic government program he can think of. Those dogs won't hunt and he will be back teaching school sooner than you can say Kyoto.
[updated Thu May 22 23:43:30 EDT 2008]
22 May 23:43
MRM
Just to be clear, you are still not a Liberal right?
[updated Fri May 23 01:13:06 EDT 2008]
23 May 01:13
hollinm
You only embarass yourself by supporting a leader who has no leadership ability and who will ensure a Harper majority government with his foolish campaign to raise taxes.
No poll is perfect and really is limited to 1000 people in the country. Within that there are major regional differences etc.
So I am not crowing at all because the next poll may go against the Conservatives. However, the polls on Dion's leadership have been getting consistently worse regardless of who the polling company is.
[updated Thu May 22 23:32:12 EDT 2008]
22 May 23:32
Georgine
Angus Reid does online polls Holli, and you should know how reliable those should be by the amount of times you have done them yourself. No wonder Steve does so well in them.
[updated Sat May 24 02:22:09 EDT 2008]
24 May 02:22
hollinm
There are many pollsters doing on line polling now. They say the results are as accurate as telephone surveys.
Angus Reid is an experienced pollster and do you think The Red Star would hire him if they thought he wasn't credibile? Even the Star has some standards.
I don't worry too much about individual polls but look to the trends.
The trend indicates that the Libs and Cons are virtually tied nationally.
However, there are regional breakdowns within Quebec for example which tell a different story.
Polls are good to speculate on but all I know is that there is a reason Dion is not forcing an election. His internal polling is telling him he can't win.
All the leadership polls, and there have been many, say that Canadians are not buying Dion as a leader. Until that changes Dion will avoid an election like the plague.
[updated Sat May 24 07:33:16 EDT 2008]
24 May 07:33
parnel
Dion is not forcing an election because is advisors are telling him that a majority is within reach if he continues doing as he is and harper continues screwing the country. That fact is starting to show up in polls;it will be gradual but it's coming.
[updated Sat May 24 10:56:22 EDT 2008]
24 May 10:56
hollinm
parnel...tax the polluters. Get with the program. If polluters may more then they will pass those costs onto consumers. That's how the free market system works.
There is no such thing as polluter pay. It is the ordinary people who will pay big time. Dion will have to explain all of this in his mangled English.
Dion and Suzuki can call carbon taxes anything they want but the bottom line is taxes will go up under the Dion plan. If the revenue received is used for offsetting tax reductions how does that help the environment?
If people have the same amount of money in their pockets after as before carbon taxes why change their behaviour. Because this is what this is all about... changing behaviour.
The Liberal plan will be smoke and mirrors and Harper and the government will expose it for what it is. You can call him a bully if you want but he is not going to allow the nutty professor to destroy the Canadian economy.
[updated Thu May 22 00:33:28 EDT 2008]
22 May 00:33
parnel
Harper is already destroting the Canadian economy.....look at Nick's most recent poll to see peoples' perceptions of the economy. That will eventually translate into negative numbers for Harper and his midget FM.
I also note his chief of staff has quietly resigned for opening his big moutrh in the censored fiefdom Harper runs. Harper is losing friends faster than even MRM can and that's pretty quick.
Before commenting much further on Dion's plan I will first give him the formal opportunity to announce it and not REACT TO RUMOURS spat out by Harper's propoganda machine.
I believe you will see a very good plan that is not tax and spend....emissions credits will still be a part of it.
And, no matter what you say we and the whole world will be spending more and more on the environment. Harper has no real or serious plan which is why he's in denial ansd moving his propoganda machine into high gear. His environmental bouncer Baird is trying to sell the cap program which does not effectively reduce GHG's; it only cuts them to a certain point but NOT OVERALL.
[updated Thu May 22 04:40:17 EDT 2008]
22 May 04:40
hollinm
Look at the poll carefully parnel. You can either look at the glass as half full or as half empty because it really is a saw off. Canadians are not in turmoil over the economy, as much as you would like it to be so, but they obviously have some reservations. Those reservations will depend on which part of the country you live in.
So you should be happy Brodie is leaving. Isn't that what you Liberal hacks wanted a couple of months ago? Remember David Akin lost his job with CTV because he revealed it was Brodie who told them about Clinton's view on NAFTA. The comments were made during the lock up and should have remained confidiential.
You have a real disagreement with MRM because he counters your arguments with facts which you can't dispute. Once again when you can't rebut the facts you resort to calling people names.
The trouble with Dion's plan is that it will be dead on arrival because the table will have been set by the Conservatives and it will be very difficult to overcome first impressions.
Once again you are perpetrating falsehoods. The world is not going to be spending more on reducing emissions as long as the U.S. China and India are exncluded in any global agreement. That leaves only a small number of countries carrying the load.
Harper is less worried about what the world is doing. He has little control over that. However, he does have control of what happens at home. I think his philosophy is that the environment didn't get broken over night and it isn't going to get fixed over night. So he has placed intensity targets on the major polluters with hard caps coming with the target of having a 20% reduction by 2020.
This allows industries to adopt over time by developing new techonolgies or changing their manufacturing processes. He will achieve results but maybe at a slower pace. A balanced approach, steady as she goes is what we need. Not some draconian plan to put us all into the poor house.
While Liberals may not recognize it the economy is a very fragile thing. It doesn't take much to screw it up but it takes a lot of work and effort to fix it. Canadians are not going to allow the nutty professor who knows little about the economy to potentially destroy our way of life.
[updated Thu May 22 11:25:49 EDT 2008]
22 May 11:25
parnel
One comment only...MRM counters my points with newspaper clippings that are well slanted to read that his POV is correct. He has no factual basis for calling Paul Martin a crook..just a bunch of stupid and biased articles that he believes foolishly brcause of anever ending hatred of things Liberal...he has no intent of being accurate.
he must have been a big zero in the military. .
[updated Fri May 23 05:34:54 EDT 2008]
23 May 05:34
hollinm
I have seen some of his comments and he counters much more than just Paul Martin.
He gave you a pretty synopsis of the National Daycare plan the Liberals were proposing.
Anyway we can always find articles that support our point of view and that's what these discussions are all about.
[updated Fri May 23 10:54:24 EDT 2008]
23 May 10:54
parnel
YEA HE'S SO ACCURATE HE'S NOW BASICALLY DENYING THE IRISH ECONOMIC MIRACLE THAT OCCURRED OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS OR SO EVER HAPPENED.
[updated Fri May 23 23:09:49 EDT 2008]
23 May 23:09
MRM
No parnel I am not denying anything. I am saying that it has it's pitfalls and that it is not the solution for Canada's taxation system.
[updated Sat May 24 00:09:30 EDT 2008]
24 May 00:09
parnel
Everything has pitfalls. At least other idreas were well though ut and not just populist reacationary stuff like the way our esteemed dictator and his midget operate.
[updated Sat May 24 06:59:08 EDT 2008]
24 May 06:59
MRM
At least check the communist manifesto handbook for spelling before you launch into a tirade.
[updated Sat May 24 21:04:55 EDT 2008]
24 May 21:04
parnel
I was reading from your party's web site when I wrote that.
[updated Sun May 25 06:21:23 EDT 2008]
25 May 06:21
hollinm
Dion's approval rating hs sunk to its lowest level yet, with nine of 10 Canadians saying they disapprove or are not sure of his performance.
Just 10% of those surveyed stand behind Dion's leadership compared to 32% for the Prime Minister.
What's worse is that the number of people who said they were unsure about Dion's performance has dropped from 46% at the end of last summer to 30% this month, meaning that Canadians are making up their minds about a leader who has had difficulties rallying his party behind him as well as communicating his party's positions to potential voters.
The fact that Dion is at 8% as a strong and decisive leader and 16% as someone who can manage the economy effectively, this is only helping Harper. This said by Mario Canseco of the Angus Reid polling firm.
Overall 34% of respondents said they would vote Conservative if an election were held tomorrow, compared to 27% who would vote Liberal.
I wanted to make sure that you saw these polling results parnel. After all you are so quick to minimize the polls showing Harper as not doing well.
Your guy is in deep doo doo and only a miracle will save him. These polls all show a consistent trend in respect to Dion's favourablity ratings.
[updated Thu May 22 20:42:03 EDT 2008]
22 May 20:42
hollinm
If there is anyone that is constipated it is Liberal supporters who deny, publicly at least, the desperation of their situation. Polls are polls and will say what they will. However, when Canadians are asked about Dion they are decidedly not receptive to him personally and certainly not to his message of higher taxes.
I repeat it is the Opposition Parties who set the tone in Parliament with their questions. So when they start with faux scandals they are going to get non answers.
The problem with Liberals is that they don't like it when their attacks are reciprocated with attacks on them. Harper learned from the best when it comes to gutter politics i.e. the Liberals. He watched Jean Chretien with his iron rule over caucus and his threats to call an election to keep the caucus in line while most wanted him out and Martin in.
Once again these machinations and the stuff that your party wants to talk about will not make a hill of beans in the next election. It will be about leadership, the Afghan mission and of course the delicious carbon tax.
[updated Sun May 18 11:09:27 EDT 2008]
18 May 11:09
parnel
Hollinm keep on preaching to your self. We don't mind you wasting your votes on a losing proposition..
[updated Sun May 18 18:53:47 EDT 2008]
18 May 18:53
hollinm
Oh parnel I will do whatever I can to see that my Conservative MP is re-elected. I will continue to write letters, to blog and make people aware that Liberals ever given the reins of power again will destroy the country with their big government, cradle to grave social policies, big taxes and an environmental policy that will destroy the economy and the standard of living of ordinary Canadians. Canadians will not buy the smoke and mirror of Liberal snake oil salesman like they did in the past.
[updated Sun May 18 21:54:26 EDT 2008]
18 May 21:54
You and MRM are a tag team whose buffoonery needs leashing. It is the CONs who have blown the budget, not the LIBs. It is the CONs who stand alone in the world (save the USA and Australia) on Kyoto. Cradle to grave social policies? What's wrong with that?
It is to laugh.
[updated Sun May 18 22:18:37 EDT 2008]
18 May 22:18
Whoops. I forgot. Australia recently had an election and the pro-environment party won. So it's the Bush administration and us, all alone. Isn't that a clue?.
[updated Sun May 18 22:30:18 EDT 2008]
18 May 22:30
hollinm
Sometimes its lonely at the top even though you may be right. Its called leadership and it is only history that can judge whether you are on the side of the angels or not.
One thing I know for sure if Dion campaigns on a carbon tax I will do everything in my power to ensure that the local Liberal candidate is defeated.
[updated Mon May 19 00:41:37 EDT 2008]
19 May 00:41
MRM
rsharp – You are living proof that one need have a clue to recognize one. If there is any buffoonery afoot it is being perpetuated by you and your veracity challenged sidekick parnel. You both keep blathering on with the same old tired inaccuracies that only your uber-left wing cronies believe anymore like the US and Canada are the only countries opposed to Kyoto. I have already proven you wrong on this topic. You remember, it is one of those posts you had no answer for so didn’t. Even those countries that have ratified Kyoto are not meeting their commitments; Here are a few examples of countries that like Canada have ratified Kyoto but have about the same or worse increases in GHG emissions as Canada (+26.6%) from their 1990 levels. There are others. (Source – UN Report on Climate Change):
Spain + 50.2%
Portugal + 28.9%
Monaco + 39%
Greece + 25.3%
Ireland + 22.7 %
New Zealand + 17.9%
Australia + 5.2% (Made outside framework of the agreement under the previous Liberal
government of John Howard)
Japan + 15.2%
China + 47% (does not include the emissions generated by the production of one new
dirty coal fired electrical generating plant per week)
India + 55% ( Brazil India and China are except from having to reduce emissions under phase one of the treaty but have committed to making reductions under phase two in 2011. Since that time India and China have stated that they will not make reductions under phase two and if required to do so they will not be signatories to the agreement.)
Brazil + 30.2 % (not including plans to accelerate the destruction of the Amazon Rain Forest by five times the 1990 levels in order to accommodate the planting of ethanol producing crops. These figures are exempt form Kyoto by special provision within the agreement.
Even so under phase two: “In the 'Washington Declaration' agreed on February 16, 2007, Heads of governments from Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia, United Kingdom, the United States, Brazil, China, India, Mexico and South Africa agreed in principle on the outline of a successor to the Kyoto Protocol. They envisage a global cap-and-trade system that would apply to both industrialized nations and developing countries, and hoped that this would be in place by 2009.” Source – BBC.”
It is important to note that even if every signatory to Kyoto met their reduction targets China’s increase in emissions alone world equal five times the reductions made by 2011.
[updated Mon May 19 02:14:54 EDT 2008]
19 May 02:14
parnel
What you seem to forget with your anal analysis is that kyoto is expected to produce incremental results which means the pace will pick up once momentum kicks in. If they are less than planned performance now the reductions already in place form a base and new reductions will help pick it up to where it should be;that's the real plan.
Besides we as Canadians should not care what others are or are not doing per se. We should focus on doing our part as opposed to Harper's do nothing plan which sets guideline at 2006 levels instead of 1990 like Kyoto states. Kyoto is the law of the land by the way and Harpercrite is simply flaunting it.
[updated Mon May 19 02:59:13 EDT 2008]
19 May 02:59
MRM
Thanks for literally challenged and completely incoherent description of the Kyoto Treaty. Kyoto is a flawed document that will ruin our economy. I see that and thankfully now so do a majority of Canadians, despite your moronic left wing ideological rants to the contrary. What "incremental results"? You mean the fact that we will incrementally loose jobs to the so called developing worlds of China and India? Or do you mean the "incremental results" that the Liberals were supposed to have started more than a decade ago but did nothing? So now we would have only few years to play catch up in order to create those "incremental results". The only way to do that under the terms of the agreement would be to give billions of dollars to away. For someone who professes to be a fiscal conservative you sure don’t talk like one? I also noted the story in yesterday's news that for the first time in decades GHG emissions have gone down in Canada. That never happened under the Liberals so the Tories must be doing something right?
[updated Mon May 19 08:37:04 EDT 2008]
19 May 08:37
parnel
I think you should go back to studying creation 6000 years ago. it looks better on you.
Ha, you think two years under the Tories have produced the reductions in GHG..think again. The laws were imposed by a Liberal regime.
Your fantasies are getting funnier by the post.
No matter what you say GHG reductions will cost billions and kyoto targets while tough are in line with what science says has to be the emissions levels and 1990 was picked because that's the level they want to see.
Canadians are rating kyoto lower because the Tory nongovernment is downplaying it and not even mentioning kyoto in their censorship method of democracy. Hell, baird can't even spell kyoto and probably doesn't even know where kyoto is. He probably thinks its a sushi dish and has probably asked for it in a restaurant. He's that dumb.
And I bet I just taught you something new as well
[updated Mon May 19 14:20:21 EDT 2008]
19 May 14:20
MRM
What’s with the creationist stuff? Is this the latest talking point in the Liberal party handbook? Just for the record I'm an atheist. Also for the record Harper is a fiscal conservative, not a religious one. Canadians know this now so these fear mongering left wing lies won’t work this time. That said I hope that you and you’re out of step moron colleagues don’t stop using them because this time it will backfire on you and cause a voter backlash.
As for GHG reductions - Specifically what laws did the Liberals make that caused that. Can you name even one or this just another one you made up because it sounded good?
Finally we agree on something. I agree with your statement that:
“GHG reductions will cost billions and Kyoto targets while tough are in line with what science says has to be the emissions levels and 1990 was picked because that's the level they want to see.”
I have never disputed the high cost of Kyoto nor the science it is based on. I said it was a bad deal because it is ineffective. It allows the two largest polluters in the world to opt out making all of our efforts and huge expenditures a wasted effort and in the process will ruin our economy.
Yeah, you sure taught me something there genius.
[updated Tue May 20 00:46:40 EDT 2008]
20 May 00:46
hollinm
parnel the Liberals signed on to Kyoto without realizing the devastation that would result in the Canadian economy. If they knew then they were incompetent bordering on criminal.
Chretien signed Kyoto without the approval of his cabinet nor the caucus. A lot of Liberals were threatening not to support it and Chretien threatened to call an election to get them onside.
Eddie Goldenberg acknowledged in his book that the Liberals didn't implement Kyoto because they knew the public would not accept the impact it would have on their way of life.
It has become obvious since signing Kyoto that short of spending billions on buying international trade credits from the likes of Russia would allow us to pretend we were in compliance. Only draconian measures would allow us to meet the Kyoto targets of 6% below 2000 levels.
Mr. Harper is not prepared to destroy the Canadian economy to allow hard earned taxypayer money to be moved to say Russia with no real improvments in our own environment.
A slow, balanced approach is the prudent way to go.
Placing intensity targets initally on industry to allow them to ajdust and then putting on hard caps is the way to go.
If Kyoto is the be all then let all countries sign on including the world's biggest polluters. Only then will the planet be "saved". However, destroying the GDP of Canada and the jobs that go with it is foolhardy and is not the way a responsible prime minister should lead his country.
The Dion carbon tax proposal while smoke and mirrors will put to bed whether Canadians are prepared to see their life styles inalterably changed in such a way that the government raises billions of new tax dollars and there is little change in the environment.
I think faced with the option Canadians will reject Dion and the Liberal approach to fixing the environment on the backs of ordinary hard working Canadians.
[updated Wed May 21 13:09:04 EDT 2008]
21 May 13:09
parnel
You always think dion this and Dion that always negatively. The Canadian will see it differently. I think the next set of polls will show the Liberals on top or very close to overtaking the useless Tories. Harper's time of doing nothing but running a propoganda machine is nearly over.
NO MATTER WHAT YOU THINK OR SAY CANADIANS AS WELL AS ALMOST EVERY OTHER COUNTRY ARE GOING TO PAY MORE FOR THE ENVIRONMENT. ITS HOW IT WILL BE MANAGED AND FOR THAT ONE NEEDS A PLAN. HARPER HASN'T ONE AND WON'T BECAUSE HE BELIEVES LIKE HIS FOLLOWERS THAT WE AR EONLY 6000 YEARS OLD AND THE WORLD MUST UNFOLD ACCORDING TO THAT BIBLE.
[updated Thu May 22 04:45:26 EDT 2008]
22 May 04:45
hollinm
Quit the cutting and pasting parnel. Get a real argument that makes sense.
I really think you are becoming more scared as each day goes by and Dion craters in his leadership numbers, forces the caucus to abstain and really has nothing to offer to the Canadian people but higher taxes. Oh, I forgot Bob Rae is writing the platform. He loves those taxes.
[updated Thu May 22 11:06:49 EDT 2008]
22 May 11:06
parnel
If I had someone to argue with that makes sense than I would . rabid dog western right wing views don't make for a consensus of any kind in the real world in Canada
[updated Fri May 23 05:36:36 EDT 2008]
23 May 05:36
MRM
With bigots like parnel advising the LPC there is little doubt as to the reason why they cannot win any seats in Western Canada.
[updated Fri May 23 23:25:13 EDT 2008]
23 May 23:25
parnel
Bigots are you my friend.
[updated Fri May 23 23:29:42 EDT 2008]
23 May 23:29
MRM
parnel - First of all we are definately not friends. Secondly, you will not find one bigotted remark from me on this or any other site. You unfortuanately cannot make the same claim.
[updated Sat May 24 00:12:14 EDT 2008]
24 May 00:12
parnel
I think you missed the sardonic part of my friend remark.
You are the biggest bigot here with your lies and innuendos about Paul Martin and other slanted stuff you purport to be the truth.
[updated Sat May 24 07:01:15 EDT 2008]
24 May 07:01
MRM
I guess you don't know that you are a bigot because given the context you use the word in you do not actually know what the word means. Maybe you should ask your teacher or your babysitter?
[updated Sat May 24 08:04:45 EDT 2008]
24 May 08:04
parnel
I just did and the baysitter said..... who is that know nothing who lies and slants everything? She thought MRM was short for M&M because of the candy a**ed comments.
[updated Sat May 24 10:59:18 EDT 2008]
24 May 10:59
MRM
No wonder you are the way you are. Look at the adult influences you have!
[updated Sat May 24 23:57:04 EDT 2008]
24 May 23:57
parnel
At least they were adult.
[updated Sun May 25 06:22:09 EDT 2008]
25 May 06:22
parnel
Boy are the Liberals ever cratering!!!!
Wake up hollinm and realize your favorite team is not going to repeat. They are now hanging on for dear life.
[updated Sun May 25 06:56:09 EDT 2008]
25 May 06:56
hollinm
Wishful thinking parnel. As I have told you before 10% in the polls is pretty sad for a leader who hopes to become prime minister. Even Harper was never that low when the supposed juggernaut Paul Martin was leading the corrupt Liberal party.
Too bad Dion will run around the country during the summer advocating higher taxes and nobody will be listening to him.
However, with the Conservatives and the NDP trashing his carbon tax plan he will be running for the hills.
[updated Mon May 26 00:02:26 EDT 2008]
26 May 00:02
hollinm
Once again MRM you put an end to their distortions by accurately quoting the reality of the situation. Kyoto is a farce as long as the major polluters in the world are not required to meet GHG targets.
Particuarly in Canada who is said to only produce 2% of the world's GHG we could destroy our economy for an ideology and then find that GHGs continue to grow globally.
How does it help destroying Canadian industry, jobs, higher inflation resulting in higher interest rates? The devastation that would ensue would lead to civic unrest etc.
However, the envirofacists are determined to put Canada back to the horse and buggy days.
Once again we need to remind people that there are limited technologies available today to replace fossil fuels. What is available are all in their infancies and very expensive.
If McGuinty is so pro environment why not close down his coal fired plants being used to generate electricity and sees what happens to the Ontario economy.
He could put a carbon tax on the automotive and manufacturing sectors and see what happens.
We could shut down the oil sands, reduce GHGs and that would put an end to the strong economic activity now being enjoyed by Canada. What would offset this? An uncompetitive auto industry now going through a restructuring, slowing manufacturering sector?
Envirofacists talk a good game but the reality is there is no quick fix to the environment without severely impacting the country.
[updated Wed May 21 12:50:28 EDT 2008]
21 May 12:50
MRM
If only we could just shut the twins down. That would eliminate a enough GHG emissions to meet our Kyoto targets with plenty to spare!
[updated Thu May 22 01:23:44 EDT 2008]
22 May 01:23
hollinm
That will happen soon enough as Dion's numbers continue to fade. Look at the Red Star this morning. Dion's polling numbers are down to 10% versus John Turner after he lost the election when his went down to 14%. Dion's numbers are worse than any Liberal leader.
Instead of putting Dion on the BQ circuit this summer they should hide him in Ottawa. The more people see of him the less they like him.
Can you just see Dion trying to explain carbon taxes, tax shifting and trying to convince Canadians that it will not cost them a dime. That pig won't fly. Canadians were fooled once by Mulroney when he said the GST would be revenue neutral. We know where that got us.
[updated Thu May 22 10:50:41 EDT 2008]
22 May 10:50
parnel
Hollinm,There you go with alarmist falsehoods. Who ever said anything about shutting down the oil sands or other mining operations. Its about managing the environment stupid not shutting down the industrial world. I thought you had some modicum, not a lot, of common sense but you just lost me there.
MRM's comments are always idiotic and he simply spews his garbage like he was still in the military. I don't take orders from failed privates.
McGuinty will shut down the coal fired plants once his clean fired nuclear plants come on stream and they are in process.
We in Ontario have the most extensive garbage recycling plans in Canada. We are progressive and moving forward unlike the dinosaurs who are the Conservative nut bars. Harper will go down as a sad reminder about how foolish Canadians can be sometimes..or at least 36% of the 60% who bothered to vote.
[updated Thu May 22 04:54:16 EDT 2008]
22 May 04:54
hollinm
Once again parnel you can call me names but that only reflects badly on you and lowers the level of discourse.
I never said Dion was advocating the shut down of the oil sands but he certainly wants to curtail their activities which in itself will hurt the industry and the Canadian economy. However, Mark Holland suggested when he was out here some months ago that they could be nationalized if they don't do as they are told.
If there are technologies available then I am sure owners of the oil sands will adopt them over time. However, if draconian measures are placed on them that results in it no longer being profitable we could see them shut operations or considerably downscale them. Either way that affects jobs.
No real progress on the environment will take place without the coal fired plants being replaced, not only in Ontario but in Alberta. Unfortunately that is a long term project and McGuinty nor Stechmach have announced how they intend on replacing them. If its nuclear that's at least 10 years away.
I am so pleased to hear that Ontario has a garbage recycling scheme in place. That makes me sleep better at night. McGuinty, progressive? That's an oxymoron if ever I have heard one.
By the way check out the Star this morning. Your illustrious leader is now down to 10% in leadership. Lower than Turner when he lost the election. He only went down to 14%.
Wait till the details of higher taxes comes out. Can he get down to 0%? Stay tuned.
[updated Thu May 22 11:03:59 EDT 2008]
22 May 11:03
parnel
By the way McGuinty has shut down two of the coal fired plants so far.
And the Bruce upgrade currently underway will replace most to of the remaining coal fired power.
Also, and if you ever read anything that comes out of the east you would realize that Ontario has a deal with Quebec for a huge amount of hydro power that is also underway construction wise.
As you are now aware there are polls starting to show the Libs on top so your Dion attack ads here are going nowhere.
Dion will not ever slow down the tar sands;he will enforce some new DEFINED environmental guidelines that have teeth, unlike the mish mash of Baird, and that the oil Companies can live with. He doesn't need Alberta votes the way Harper does for his basic survivial and will ensure things go smoothly but defined.
You also continue to forget that Liberals have had the best relationships of any party with business over the last several decades as they realize who provides the jobs Canadians need to ensure our standard of living.
But keep yur blinders and you will miss the express train that is now building a head of steam.........its called the Liberal machine!!!!
[updated Sun May 25 07:07:08 EDT 2008]
25 May 07:07
MRM
holinm – What parnel neglects to mention it that the Bruce plant alone is two years over schedule and $300m over budget. As well many prominent environmentalists, including his favorite Mr. Suzuki, are vocal opponents to nuclear power and Ontario’s plan in particular because they believe it to be dirtier than coal. The Sierra Club believes that Ontario would be much better of spending their money on stopping the Great Lake cities and factories from dumping raw sewage into the Great Lakes.
[updated Sun May 25 10:46:56 EDT 2008]
25 May 10:46
parnel
You ar simply astounding in your slanting of news... we were not discussing delays but simply the replacement of coal power. the rest of your stuff is nonsense and technically unsound information.
[updated Sun May 25 11:59:06 EDT 2008]
25 May 11:59
MRM
From the David Suzuki Foundation Website:
Nuclear power
Nuclear power is experiencing a revival thanks to growing concerns about climate change. The nuclear industry has reinvented itself as an environmentally friendly option, producing electricity without the air pollution and greenhouse gas emissions of coal, oil or gas.
But a closer look reveals nuclear power is not an environmentally or financially viable option. Nuclear power creates radioactive waste and there is no accepted method of managing that waste. It is also prohibitively expensive. The last plant constructed in Ontario – Darlington – was billions of dollars over budget when it was completed in the mid-1980s.
Environmental problems
Whatever benefits nuclear technology may provide through decreased air pollutants are more than made up for by large and unresolved environmental problems. As of 2000, Canada has 35,000 tonnes of highly radioactive nuclear waste, with nowhere to put it. With a radioactive half-life of 25,000 years, nuclear waste remains dangerous for 250,000 years.
As well, mining uranium for nuclear power is extremely energy-intensive, meaning that nuclear power is in fact a considerable source of greenhouse gases. Furthermore, routine releases and accidental spills of contaminated water from mining operations have poisoned major fisheries and threatened the health of local communities.
There are many safety issues surrounding nuclear power, especially as power plants age. Nuclear plants routinely emit radioactive material, imposing cancer risks on its workers, their children, and people in surrounding communities. Power plants can also leak other hazardous materials. For example, Pickering reactor #4 had a heavy water leak in April 1996 that released radioactive tritium into Lake Ontario, contaminating drinking water supplies.
Economic problems
The energy source once billed as “too cheap to meter” has proven to be one of the most expensive energy sources in history.
Between 1956 and 2000, Canada’s state-owned Atomic Energy of Canada Limited (AECL) received subsidies totaling $16.6 billion. Even with these subsidies, nuclear power is far more expensive than both fossil fuels and renewables.
The last 20 reactors built in the U.S. had an average cost of $5,000 per kilowatt of capacity; the last one built in Canada cost $4,000 per kilowatt. Compare these prices to the current prices for large-scale wind power and natural gas plants, currently at $1,200 and $1,000 per kilowatt respectively.
The figures for nuclear do not include related costs to society from environmental and health damage, or the costs of accidents, clean up, waste disposal or plant decommissioning. And nuclear plants are not only expensive, they’re also financially risky because of their long lead times, huge cost overruns, and open-ended liabilities.
From the Sierra Club website:
Sierra Club View on Use of Nuclear Power Remains Unchanged
The Interim Policy of the Sierra Club hasn't changed in regard to the use of nuclear power. Nuclear power is considered to be the least safe alternative to fossil fuels as well as the most expensive alternative.
Carl Pope's recent article called "Fantasy Nuclear" in the Sierra criticizes nuclear promoters for ignoring the constant relationship of nuclear power and proliferation of nuclear weapons. Disregarding the probability of reactor accidents or the real possibility of terrorist use is for Pope "fantasy nuclear."
While Carl Pope has an attitude I agree with, he understates the issue of nuclear waste. Safe storage of nuclear waste is a fairy tale. For you or me to believe that we can find a safe storage solution for radioactive waste for millennia is immoral.
New nuclear plants are not a transitional energy source since plants such as Callaway and Watts Bar are licensed for 40 years. A new nuclear power plant is an economic boondoggle. It requires federal grants, loan guarantees, and risk insurance, so will be heavily subsidized by the public.
Our way of life is threatened by the way we produce and consume energy. Our resources should be spent on alternatives to our use of fossil fuel for transportation and alternatives to our use of coal for creation of electricity. We should not spend our economic resources, natural resources, and technological resources to create future problems for humanity with nuclear power.
[updated Sun May 25 13:35:07 EDT 2008]
25 May 13:35
parnel
Suzuki has no real alternative to Nuclear power as gas and wind can not provide Ontario with enough power. The waste issue is real and very manageable but what do fossil fuels do to the environment?
If we go to hydrogen/hybrid cars there will be massive batteries in every car that are not easily disposed of.
The cheapest and sometimes cleanest energy can be coal if its scrubbed properly. Ontario did not have the physical plant capacity at Lakeview to do so properly.
Again you go off half cocked and slant stuff because you really don't understand the issues.
Nuclear power is having a renaisance in western Europe and in the end while more expensive it is the cleanest alternative and fulfills many green initiatives. suzuki at times thinks we should live on generators fed with used poo from the toilet.
While he has good ideas he is also a purist and we don't live in a pure world.
[updated Sun May 25 14:40:00 EDT 2008]
25 May 14:40
MRM
My, my how quickly things change! Just a few days a go you were singing Suzuki’s praises and touting him as the world’s greatest authority on the environment. Now because he is not saying what you want to hear he doesn’t know what he is talking about. I am just quoting him and the Sierra Club. So I guess it is they and not me who are going “off half cocked and slant stuff because they really don't understand the issues?”
[updated Sun May 25 16:24:45 EDT 2008]
25 May 16:24
parnel
The problem with your slanting of facts is that you squirt out some half truths and then buy in to them yourself hook line and sinker.
Suzuki is a great environmentalist but he's got his own agenda on certain issues.
I don't agree blindly with anyone.
And I don't slant things to try and fool people into believing my stuff. You needed to get something out there because you have no answers yourself...just more weak stuff from a feeble mind.
[updated Sun May 25 18:59:36 EDT 2008]
25 May 18:59
MRM
I knew that you would accuse me of slanting the facts so you have both articles word for word in total, not extracts, from the Sierra Club and Suzuki websites. So no slanting, only their words. You just cannot admit that the ON Liberals suck on the environment in the words of the very people that you are always touting as the experts on the issue. So as usual your only recourse is to sink into the gutter and launch personal attacks. There is nothing worse than a hypocrite except of course a weak minded hypocrite.
[updated Sun May 25 19:18:37 EDT 2008]
25 May 19:18
parnel
The original conversation was about coal fired vs nuclear power and you said they were not getting rid of the coal fired fast enough. When challenged on that you simply went overboard and quoted the two environmentalist groups who are the most radical ones going to try and defray your lunacy on the subject at hand for which you were given a direct and accurate answer.
BS and more BS comes from you than anyone I've seen on any blog.
[updated Sun May 25 19:29:20 EDT 2008]
25 May 19:29
MRM
So now they are "radicals". They sure have fallen from hero status in a hurry. When did I say that they were not getting rid of coal fast enough? Never said it at all, ever. You made that up which is of course, not surprising. Both articles deal with the merits of coal vs nuclear which is exactly the issue that you were misrepresenting.
I love it when you get all frustrated and blast out little ditties like this incoherant gem:
"When challenged on that you simply went overboard and quoted the two environmentalist groups who are the most radical ones going to try and defray your lunacy on the subject at hand for which you were given a direct and accurate answer."
Priceless! Thanks for the laugh. It made my day.
[updated Sun May 25 20:04:55 EDT 2008]
25 May 20:04
hollinm
Its news to me that McGuinty has closed down any coal fired plants. Ontario has already had brown/black outs during the summer.
You keep talking about the future but when your buddy tries to put carbon taxes on the plants watch Ontario squeal.
The Liberals (not Dion) only have strength in Ontario and the Maritimes. That won't give him a minority government let alone a majority. If you and the nutty professor think the Libs are going to take 106 seats in Ontario both of you are smoking something.
If the platform is higher taxes Canadians have been there and done that. The Liberal track record on high taxes is evident for all to see. Canadians will abandon the Liberals in droves. Bring on the higher taxes and Dion will back teaching school before he can say Kyoto.
[updated Mon May 26 00:09:36 EDT 2008]
26 May 00:09
parnel
Its obvious your western centric location leaves you blind to happenings here. Lakeview coal fired plant was closed two years ago and one more has closed near Trenton. Ontario has a plan and it is being actively worked which does include nuclear, hydro from Quebec, co gen, and some alternative forms of energy. You must read up on your fellow Canadians if you want to be seen to be somewhat intelligent.
As for Dion and his regional strength...are you aware that Chretien had three majority governments with the same regionalized voting pattern with the bloc in play the whole time. The bloc is self destructing in Quebec and that leaves the door open for more seats. Chretien took all 99 seats in Ontario in one election and people here hate Harper enough to see that potentially happen again. Certainly Mcguinty is not going to the barricades for Harper and has more than a very decent relationship with his federal cousins.
The platform will not be on higher taxes;that's only a wet dream of yours. Only the NDP runs on that platform.
Keep those bigoted western dreams alive. I believe in a Canada that goes from Atlantic to pacific and from the US border to the high Arctic. It doesn't begin at the Manitoba border and head west from there.
[updated Mon May 26 05:47:40 EDT 2008]
26 May 05:47
hollinm
We can't afford a socialist state and that's what you advocate. You are even further left than the NDP. Good thing Canadians sit in the mushy middle as opposed to your positions.
[updated Mon May 19 00:39:15 EDT 2008]
19 May 00:39
MRM
rsharp is left of the NDP but not a communist. He can't be a Green either because according to his twin the Greens are right of the Tories.
[updated Mon May 19 02:07:51 EDT 2008]
19 May 02:07
parnel
MRM, you are simply green with envy and have no clue about real politics. A country full of your types would not be my Canada but fortunately I'm a true democrat and wouldn't kick you out....its fun to keep little nuisances around.
[updated Mon May 19 03:04:21 EDT 2008]
19 May 03:04
MRM
Gee thanks, lucky me.
[updated Mon May 19 08:42:03 EDT 2008]
19 May 08:42
parnel
BS, you obviously haven't a clue about my real politics.....I am probably more fiscally conservative than most red necks and religious right who are simply populists. I don't believe in squandering money like the tories do regularly.
.
[updated Mon May 19 03:02:02 EDT 2008]
19 May 03:02
MRM
Really, how about the money you believe in sqaundering on Kyoto, the Kelowna Accord, national day care and on and on? You are about as fiscally conservative as that buffoon you call a leader.
[updated Mon May 19 08:45:27 EDT 2008]
19 May 08:45
parnel
I'd rather my leader be a buffon as oppsoed to a liar and briber. I'd rather he be an open politician as opposed to being a bully. I'd rather my leader be green and open about it as opposed to bulldozing the environment underground and leaving my country way behind the rest of the world where we will be fiscally if the midget continues to mismanage our economy.
I'd rather my leader make real tax cuts.
[updated Mon May 19 14:26:26 EDT 2008]
19 May 14:26
It is Harper's defence "strategy" that gets me going. We haven't been attacked in almost 200 years. The only time we go to war is to defend out allies from attack.
Check that. We also go to war to appease our American friends. Afghanistan never attacked the US..
[updated Mon May 19 14:30:29 EDT 2008]
19 May 14:30
MRM
rsharp, how many times do we have to go over this? The fact that we have not been invaded in 200 years might mean that our defence strategy is working? How is this just Harper's defence strategy? It has not changed much from the Liberal Strategy. We are still part of NATO and NORAD, we are still in Afghanistan and the forces are about the same size and composition so how has the strategy changed?
If you think that Afghanistan did not attack the US you had better check international law. If a country provides shelter to a terrorist organization and as a result facilitates an attack on a foreign nation or its citizens then this constitutes an act of war by that nation. (check that)
As for Canada being attacked, I guess by your bizarre logic the Nazis never attacked us either or that the Air India bombing was not an attack. What constitutes an “attack” to you? What does it take for guys like you to defend yourselves, someone rolling over your family with a tank in your front yard before you will act? If you do not think that we were attacked on 9/11 ask the families of those who lost someone. If you think that by doing nothing that these fanatics will just go away then you are a bigger fool that I even I thought you were.
P.S. Nice move changing the subject in order to save your twin from loosing an argument but you picked the wrong topic to move to.
[updated Tue May 20 01:07:06 EDT 2008]
20 May 01:07
That's why I put the the word "stategy" in quotation marks. It's little more than a shopping list, and largely for killing machines of which we should have no part. How about Department of Offence?
Afghanistan didn't attack the USA nor its allies (like us). That's a fact. The Taliban was willing to hand bin Laden over to a independent third party of provided proof of his guilt. The USA invaded anyway. The modicum of UN support achieved later will never erase that it was an illegal invasion of a sovereign country (however distasteful the regime.
The point is, we need these massive military spending increases like a hole in the head. There are countless more human uses of federal funds. Countless.
[updated Wed May 21 18:48:15 EDT 2008]
21 May 18:48
MRM
Anyone with even a basic understanding of the military will find your comments laughable. You would not know a good military “strategy” if it fell on your head. You are one of those well intentioned but naïve and misguided do-gooders who know little about how a modern military is structured or functions. You cannot defend a country with a purely defensively equipped force. At some point you will need to actually attack an enemy to defeat it. It’s like playing a hockey game with only a goalie.
This strategy is a Canada First strategy. The same strategy your beloved NDP have been screaming for decades for. A good portion of the money being spent is on “killing machines” like maritime patrol aircraft (unarmed), search and rescue aircraft (unarmed), strategic airlift (unarmed), tactical airlift (unarmed) and patrol ships that will patrol our territorial waters including the Arctic enforcing sovereignty. There is no increase in capability in the plan only replacement and modernization of existing capability and a refocusing on domestic defence.
On the issue of the Taliban, your unwavering support of these monsters is perplexing to me. You profess to be a champion of human rights but advocate on behalf of the most brutal regime the world has seen since the Nazis? The invasion was sanctioned by the UN, which I have given you the applicable articles for but you either choose not to believe them or just do not comprehend their meaning? The Taliban offered to hand Bin laden over to an “independent third party”, whoever that might be, but that was on Oct 14, 2001 seven days after the invasion in an obvious attempt to save itself. You still miss the point though, the UN had warned the Taliban about its record on human rights and its support for international terrorism long before 911. The Taliban was just as guilty as Bin Laden for 911 and numerous other terrorist attacks around the globe so handing him over was not going to get them off the hook.
Extract of UN Resolution 1267 Oct 15 1999:
“Resolution 1267 demands that the Taliban cease its activities in support of international terrorism and insists that the Afghan faction turn over Osama Bin Laden to the appropriate authorities to bring him to justice.” (Note, not a “third party”) To enforce these demands, the Council imposes a flight ban on any aircraft "owned, leased or operated by or on behalf of the Taliban" and freezes all financial resources that the organization controls. The Resolution also announces the establishment of a Sanctions Monitoring Committee, which will include all Security Council members.” There are plenty of subsequent resolutions.
Dec 12, 2001:
“The UN Security Council, in a unanimous vote authorized the use of force in the NATO-led military operations in Afghanistan declaring the invasion was an act of collective self-defense as provided for under Article 51 of the UN Charter. The Security Council further authorized the International Security Assistance Force to use force in its mission of securing the country.” Source BBC World News
So in the end you can defend these murderous criminals all you want but it is just another example of the hypocritical left saying one thing and then not having the courage of their convictions to act on them. You all want to save the world as long as no one gets hurt in the process. You haven't got the guts to do the hard thing and actually put yourselves on the line to either defend your own people or help others. Instead you prefer to cower in the safety of the argument that we can't do anything because the Taliban are a "sovereign country".
[updated Thu May 22 01:19:19 EDT 2008]
22 May 01:19
I invite you to read this.
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/14762
[updated Wed May 21 21:03:47 EDT 2008]
21 May 21:03
MRM
Is this an official Communist party website?
[updated Thu May 22 02:00:05 EDT 2008]
22 May 02:00
parnel
No but it wasn't written by a failed private in the military.
[updated Thu May 22 04:56:33 EDT 2008]
22 May 04:56
MRM
No was it written by a left wing moron, just like your last post.
[updated Thu May 22 21:21:01 EDT 2008]
22 May 21:21
Georgine
MRM, why have you not signed up for Afghanistan? If enough of you fighting keyboardist did we would not need to have Manley recycle his old reports for Harper ,or pretend that we were waiting for the French when we knew all along that we were getting Americans in Kandahar.
[updated Sat May 24 03:02:16 EDT 2008]
24 May 03:02
MRM
Georgine – It is clear by your comments that you do not know much about the mission. I have been twice (02 and 04) and will be back in Jan 09 for a tour, this time as a civilian contractor. Of course we knew the US would be the ones coming to support us. It is what we wanted and lobbied for. The significance of the French commitment is that it frees up US troops to be able to do so. Logistically and tactically the deployment makes perfect sense. The French will deploy to the current French area of operations creating logistical synergy for them as opposed to having their forces split. As well Canada prefers to work with US forces because we have commonality in tactics, training, language, equipment and weapons. Speaking of “fighting keyboardists” why don’t you sign up?
[updated Sat May 24 04:19:50 EDT 2008]
24 May 04:19
parnel
Who is the left wing moron? are you being bigoted again?
For your information I am far from left wing which is something you couldn't understand if you tried.
Good fiscal management and good environmnetal management, both seriously lacking in the current government are not left leaning aspirations.
[updated Sat May 24 07:04:01 EDT 2008]
24 May 07:04
MRM
You really should get someone to explain the meaning of a word to you before you use it.
[updated Sat May 24 07:56:15 EDT 2008]
24 May 07:56
parnel
I did and they referred me to your posts about Paul Martin.
[updated Sat May 24 11:00:32 EDT 2008]
24 May 11:00
MRM
Well at least we agree that Dion is a buffoon. Thats a start.
[updated Tue May 20 00:47:55 EDT 2008]
20 May 00:47
hollinm
How is Mr. Harper a briber? That myth was disposed of my the RCMP parnel. Move on. Those talking points are dead.
I suppose you call him a liar over the income trust decision. All leaders once in power have to make decisions that they probably don't like and know will be unpopular. Chretien did it in spades. However, we elect them to look after the interests of the whole country, not just the few. Harper knew it would hurt some investors but made the tough decision.
When you can make an argument that the environment can be fixed without destroying the economy and that all the major polluters are participating in an environmental agreement then you may have credibility.
However, tying one hand behind the back of Canada's economy while the rest of the world motors right along is not responsible. It's foolhardy.
If you're looking for a buffoon as a leader just look at your leader and his closing on Mike Duffy's commercial that runs incessantly on CTV. He looks like a geek, nerd and is linguistically challenged. Everytime that commercial plays it simply reinforces in Canadians that he is not prime ministerial material.
[updated Wed May 21 13:21:03 EDT 2008]
21 May 13:21
parnel
You are full of S**T...... don't advocate stupid tax reductions but do want meaningful ones. I don't advocate breaking tax promises.
You and MRM should continue studying creationism as taught by Stock Day and his ilk and you'll see that Tories have still not become civilized.
[updated Mon May 19 14:22:47 EDT 2008]
19 May 14:22
MRM
holinm- I guess that illiterate and incoherant tirade was directed at you. Keep up the good work.
[updated Tue May 20 01:09:27 EDT 2008]
20 May 01:09
hollinm
Only a leftie would argue against one type of tax cut versus another. My tax cut is better than your tax cut. All tax cuts are good and obviously somebody is enjoying the higher than normal income tax refunds. As a senior I certainly enjoyed my ability to split my income and the resulting substantial tax refund.
Oh, the old religious canard. Let's call all of the Conservative supporters religious nuts and get it over with parnel. What a biggoted comment to make. Well, when you have nothing else to say you insult.
[updated Wed May 21 13:29:27 EDT 2008]
21 May 13:29
parnel
Being called a lerftie is an insult....then again you can't tell the difference between an insult and a comment. There are effective tax cuts and useless ones. harper has given us the useless ones that will assist our economic decline instead of stimulating it. GST reductions do not stimulate an economy. The Europeans have proven this time and time again. The Irish successfully cut income tax to the bone and increased VAT with a resulting success of historical proportions. Many eastern European Countries are following, or starting to follow that model with great success. lower and flat income taxes and higher consumption taxes are the real way to prosperity. Our leaderless bunch does it bass ackwards.
[updated Thu May 22 05:03:02 EDT 2008]
22 May 05:03
MRM
Of Course you are completely wrong about the Irish taxation system. Here is an extract from an article from FinFacts, Ireland’s top financial website”
“Irish people can become adults after a third level education and twenty or more years of the Irish education system, and be clueless about the tax system.
So in stoking up interest in a general election, it is more idiot proof to concentrate on income tax rates rather than a cure for insomnia like focusing on indexation of bands.
The tax burden has only changed a fraction of 1 per cent in the period 1995-2005 according to the OECD.
It has remained in the range of 36%-37% of GNP despite significant reductions in income tax because stealth taxes in Ireland are among the highest of the 30 mainly developed countries if the 30 country member government sponsored think tank.
Progressive Democrats leader Michael McDowell heads into the General Election 2007 as a one club golfer with only one clear policy - reduction in personal tax rates and he has only achieved a 1/2% reduction in the top rate of tax since 2002.”
From the EU Financial Commission Report:
“There are 2 tax bands, based on income levels. These range from a maximum top rate of 41%, to a maximum bottom rate of 20%.The government receives much of its revenues from taxes on goods — these include a 21% VAT rate on most consumer goods, high levels of excise duty on tobacco, petrol, and alcohol and several smaller taxes on items such as plastic bags, cheques, ATM cards, credit cards and debit cards. The taxes in the personal financial sector, as well as the television licence, are often seen as regressive.”
The OECD is using the Irish experience as an example of what not to do with taxation because it is deemed to be unfair to lower and lower middle income earners. Everyone pays VAT regardless of income whereby a progressive personal income taxation system lowers taxes as income is reduced. They also lowered corporate taxes to almost nil in order to encourage investment. That part of their scheme is working. The left in this country are always criticizing the Conservatives when they lower corporate taxes. But when the Irish do it you tout it is as a model?
I hope that Dion listens to you on this one. I would love it if he were to announce an increase in the GST to 21%! No other European countries are adopting the failed Irish experiment that I am aware of? I guess that’s just another one you made up because it fit into your made up version of events.
[updated Thu May 22 07:59:22 EDT 2008]
22 May 07:59
parnel
As usual you take some report that suits your style of misrepresentation of facts.
http://www.oecdobserver.org/news/fullstory.php/aid=164
"This under-performance was related to high taxes, high labour costs, excessive regulation and anti-competitive practices. The change in fiscal policy was important in addressing these weaknesses."
further on....
"In short, the Ireland survey overestimates the role of foreign investment and labour supply, and underestimates the part played by fiscal and competition policy in the economic recovery. In a post-EMU context, fiscal policy will remain a powerful tool."
Your BS may baffle some simple people, like other Tories, but we here have gotten to know what an absolute liar you are. You are a disgrace to civilized conversation and dialogue.
.
[updated Fri May 23 05:49:03 EDT 2008]
23 May 05:49
MRM
Parnel- Of course you cannot respond without calling me a liar, which of course anyone who disagrees with you is in your small minded approach to debate. It is ironic that you do that in the same sentence where you criticize me for lack of civilized debate? Of course the rest of your argument is illogical as well. You do exactly the same thing that you accuse me of? You provide an extract of an article to support your case. So I guess we both must be “uncivilized” by your bizarre standards.
Anyway, these extracts are not from the same report I quoted from and since your web address is no good it is difficult to know the context that the quotes were made? What under performance, what fiscal policy and what survey are they referring to?
That said if you go to the OECD website and read their opinions on the Irish taxation system you will note two glaring facts. One - the Irish taxation rate as set by the OECD is about 35%, the same as the rest of the EU and Canada and two – the OECD refers to the Irish VAT system as “discriminatory” and “counter productive to trade and tourism within the EU” and further criticizes Ireland for moving away from the EU's stated goal of a common VAT system. I do not believe that their system is all bad for them though, it has lowered the overall taxation rate from 53% to 35% and lowered business rates significantly to encourage investment (to about what Canada’s are) and this has worked well for them. I just do not think that this model of heavy consumption taxes will work here and do not think that it is the silver bullet to fix our economy.
You still have also not provided any proof for your fanciful assertion that “Many eastern European Countries are following, or starting to follow that model with great success.”
I still hope that Dion follows your advice though and advocates for a 21% GST!
[updated Fri May 23 08:31:14 EDT 2008]
23 May 08:31
parnel
I'M LEANING SO FAR TO THE RIGHT TRYING TO UNDERSTAND YOUR LIES AND INNUENDOS I'M ABOUT TO KEEL OVER
[updated Fri May 23 23:05:58 EDT 2008]
23 May 23:05
MRM
Since this is best that you can come up with to counter I guess I'll take it as your tacit admission that I am right.
[updated Sat May 24 00:15:08 EDT 2008]
24 May 00:15
parnel
you are not right on anything.
[updated Sat May 24 07:04:54 EDT 2008]
24 May 07:04
Georgine
A senior?! Well that explains a lot.All the time you have to blather on. I thought you were about 18, 19, a first year poli-sci student, and a few too many beers into it to make any sense. Now I know it's just a lifetime of abuse of brain cells. Carry on. What? You don't belong to Harper and Doris' church?
[updated Sat May 24 03:07:29 EDT 2008]
24 May 03:07