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New SES Research Poll - Canada's Mission in Afghanistan - Obstacle to Harper Majority
Although some may consider this a black and white issue, the reality from a public opinion viewpoint is that we are looking at shades of grey. Generally, Canadians are divided on the government’s handling of the mission (44% agree with how the mission is being handled, 48% disagree the rest were unsure). However, 55% of Canadians believe that Canada and NATO together have not deployed the resources necessary to succeed.
Sixty-seven percent of Canadians think our mission makes Canada more of a terrorist target and 55% of Canadians think that if the casualties continue Canada should pull out (39% of Canadians think that casualties are a necessary part of our mission).
Politically, whenever Afghanistan is in the news the Tory numbers in Quebec drop. Although the mission may be good at consolidating core Tory support it basically throws a wrench in any effort for the Tories to build a majority coalition (even 40% of committed Conservative supporters think the government should pull out if the casualties continue).
See the stat sheet on the right in support materials for all the details.
It is unusual for foreign policy to be an election issue - but this one is a sleeper.
What are your views….can this be a defining election issue….how will this impact the support of the various parties.
Cheers,
NJN
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Most Read Comments
Highest Rated Comments
I find this a most interesting poll with the Conservatives most accepting of cas... more
Tom Good (British Columbia) 06 May 04:30
I think that one of the reasons that many Canadians don't understand, or support... more
NNL (Ontario) 06 May 09:14
The question "should Canada pull out if casualties continue" is based on the fal... more
Smitty (Québec) 07 May 01:17
Bernie, I have absolutely no idea where you come up with your arguments. Can yo... more
Candace (Alberta) 10 May 02:48
That is a great thought, if the world was a perfect place... However, in the ti... more
A Tyrrell (Nova Scotia) 07 May 22:43
Let me get this straight: The Liberals got us into the war--Conservatives pay t... more
Regina Beach Boy (Saskatchewan) 07 May 00:37
Comments
Tom Good
I find this a most interesting poll with the Conservatives most accepting of casualties---almost double the acceptance level as compared to those in other parties. To me, Afghanistan is an unwinnable war and I have to agree with the view point expressed by all the "unembedded" correspondents whether they be American, British or Canadian. No armed forces can IMPOSE democracy upon a country where the majority of the inhabitants have no tradition or cultural concept of what the word means and they see the NATO forces as occupying military. Harper obviously has not read the history of the failed attempts of British and Russian "control. Hearts and minds have not been won over and that is the first necessary ingredient if there is to be a transition from tribal loyalties to paticipatory democracy. A full belly and a job is what most desire FIRST and they are no different to the majority of people in that regard. The generally corrupt Karsai government appears to be viewed as an "imposed" organization and rather a puppet of American interests. Reconstruction funds seem to evaporate and not filter down to the common citizen. The war lords reportedly are keeping their mini-armies "Just in case" which is not a vote of confidence in the central government. The Taliban are ethnic Pushtuns who are on either side of the border with Pakistan where the Pakistani authorities cannot even control them----they are Pakistani too. The Afghanistan war is like our government saying they can hold water in a sieve------who is fooling who ? Yes, any pig headed government ---no matter of what political stripe---- should find the continuation of the Afghanistan war to be a detriment to a majority government-----think of the dead---the unnecessary dead on all sides. Afghanistan is an issue that has an ugly odour attached to it and it just cannot be buried and placed conviently out of sight. Afghanistan is a major political issue for Canadians whether there is an election or not.
[updated Sun May 06 04:30:25 EDT 2007]
06 May 04:30
53 replies so far. Join this conversationHide this conversation.
SwathingScientist1
Being now in my 7th decade,I sincerely feel this debacle in Afghanistan is and always was,a lost cause.At one time,don't recall now,just when but Spain tried their luck in Afghanistan.The British tried their luck there,lastly,until now,Russia tried to defeat those in Afghanistan and were driven out,gave it up.It won't be any different now.
It is my belief that we have no business interfering in other countries ways of life,their politics,especially when we can't get our own house in order.It would be so much better to accept other countries differences,work within those differences,get along.However,as it always seems to happen,if Washington says JUMP,we Canadians ask HOW HIGH.Some of the things that bother me the most are,one,why we allow ourselves to be so subservient to the US,The US doesn't really "Like" us,we are just handy is all.It is still a proven fact that approximately 70% of the American population knows nothing about Canada.The younger generations are taught nothing of us.Even if we win in a judgement with the FTA or Nafta,the US doesn't heed the outcome.Both these boards,if I may call them that,should be totoally re-negotiated so the playing field is level,America should be MADE to accept the judgements of both as binding but don't hold your breath on that.Anytime there is something going on in the US,all of our news media,hold up everything and cover it all day/night,long.BUT--if something happens in Canada,there isn't even a mention of it via CNN who looks upon themselves as the world's news leader,same with ABC/CBS/FOX/NBC.No-one in the US cares about the politics or happenings here.Where is our individuality?.Why do we cow-tow to the US?.One of the most disturbing items that constantly gets my goat is both Canada and the U.S.of A deem it fit to call ourselves a democracy!.Simple truth is,we are NOT a democracy by any stretch of the word.Because we are "allowed" to vote--does that,in itself qualify as a democracy?,I think not.Both countries are in fact a Capitalist country,money,greed rules the roost.Because something seems to work here or in the US,or so the media tries hard to convince us it does,does that mean or give us the right somehow,to force our own ways on any other country on the globe?,get real folks.Leave other countries alone,let them run their countries the way they see fit.Friendship,co-operation breeds much better results than guns,bullets,tanks,warplanes,bombs,force in general.Please think about that!,would WE like it if some country much like Afghanistan were to come here and tell US how we will live,act?,not by a long shot.We should NOT be in Afghanistan at all,we are there to appease Bush and his cohorts and it's OUR men and women who are dying and what for,what gains are being made?.NONE.Get our forces OUT of there now.History itself has shown that force accomplishes nothing but discontent,objection,the will to fight back for all they are worth and I don't blame them at all.We were once known as the world's leading country as a peacekeeper,we are NOT a war-like country and to try to act as such is foolhardy.Prime Minister Harper is joined at the hip with Bush and the American administration and how we,the people feel matters not.I sincerely trust we will have an election real soon but like Ontario,the Federal Government now has adopted a FIXED election period.Those in power can do exactly as they like and we have no say.Opinion polls don't matter for diddly anymore.
Another thing,and lastly for now,is that although we have this alledged "Constitution" now,it isn't worth the paper it was originally written on.We need a lot more Immigrants to come here and settle BUT we don't need their ways here.If someone chooses to come here,then they ought to rightly,accept our ways,our heritage,our customs,NOT bring their garbage/baggage,with them.Whether it's a majority of one,of five,or ten;the minute these new-comers don't like something,we cow-tow to them and change the laws to suit a small minority.My generation,my father's,my grandfather's;all worked really hard through blood,sweat and tears,many hardships to make Canada what it was and yet all this is tossed aside to please the few,the constitution is changed it seems,on a weekly basis to please/appease,others and WE no longer matter.That is a crime,it is shameful.Our seniors,our disabled are completely neglected and much attention paid to newcomers,what a crock indeed.All I would ask here,at this time is that ALL opinions count.Many may disacgree with me and that's fine but don't knock my feelings as I don't knock yours,we can agree to disagree which is the proper way of doing things.
A Canada that is a leader of nations,believes in moving forwards,not backwards,needs a much more Liberal government,not one where we stay the same,tread water.Thank you kindly.
06 May 09:53
NNL
I wonder, looking back, in World War One, should Canada have decided when other armies failed at Vimy Ridge, should we have brought our troops home?
In World War Two, when Germany was at the height of expansion, and power, should allied forces simply have abandoned Europe to the Nazis?
It was the leadership of the past that made Canada great. I find sometimes that today we have struggled with political leadership not real leadership, and as that has happened, Canada has suffered.
NNL
[updated Sun May 06 14:05:37 EDT 2007]
06 May 14:05
Tom Good
My father and uncles were in World War I ----- it was legalized murder and none of them found anything to glorify war. Supposedly it was war to end all wars but somehow we did not think that way yet but the League of Nations was the first step---it was the baby and no teeth. The second World War was, in part, the result of appeasement rather than sanctions and, as I mentioned, the baby had no teeth----you would not remember Haille Salasi pleading with the United Nations to stop Mussolini invading his country but then they were only Ethiopians. Of course, by this time, Japan had gobbled up Manchuria and was levelling China. Have you seen anything about the Rape of Nanking----I saw it on the Saturday newsreels at the time and can still see the bayonetted babies being thrown on the piles---good nightmare stuff for kids. Well, the second World War gave us the United Nations-----at least some teeth but the most powerful nation on Earth will not subscribe to the deliberations of that body unless they vote in favour of the United States. I guess we are not ready yet to accept that it is more productive to talk differences out in an authoritive world body than go at it with clubs and spears or whatever. Yes, the war in Afghanistan will and should be an election issue for Neandrathal thinking Canadian government no matter what the political stripe. The United Nations must be made to work .
06 May 15:18
NNL
The UN is as political as any other body.
The organization, is, in my opinion, set up to fail. Why? It works on concensus, so when one country decides not to go along with a UN resolution, there is little that actually can be done.
If the UN resolution on Iraq had not met with the political direction of the Bush administration, nothing would have happened.
Making the UN work, would mean changing the entire body, and with the way it works, making it change wouldn't likely happen.
Nothing about war is glorious.
NNL
06 May 15:46
A Tyrrell
That is a great thought, if the world was a perfect place...
However, in the times we live in, some people can not be delt with.
The Taliban interpretation of their religion... was interesting, if not
down right dangerous. On March 12 01 the Taliban blew up two 2,000
year-old Buddhist statues in the cliffs above Bamian.
This dispite a very large out cry for many museums, and countries.
Many offering millions of dollers so that they could save them.
Plus far too many other restrictions to mention on personal freedoms...
All after declaring them against Islamic law.
So sometimes you need that big stick.
[updated Mon May 07 22:43:46 EDT 2007]
07 May 22:43
Tom Good
Tyrrell. what you say about the Taliban is correct and they are just reflecting the "purity and intollerance" of Wahhabism. ---Wahhabi is state supported by Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabia is the "friend" of United States in their petro-economics. -- It does not make sense, does it ? -- To get a perspective and to understand the radical, puritanical, fundamentalist thrusts of Wahhabism, try to get your hands on a copy of THE TWO FACES OF ISLAM, Stephen Schwartz, Doubleday, 2002.---The first part of the book is heavy reading but it gives an appreciation of the current "thrusts"in the Islamic-Arab world and the part being played by Saudi Arabia behind the scenes------quite foreign to most Western thinking.
08 May 00:33
Bernie
Yes, the Taliban are criminals.
What do we do in civilized societies with a criminal? Does one member of our society go and kill him with a big stick? No, not even the victims of the criminal has the right to do that. Only an independent body ( the judiciary) should have the right, through due process, to deal with it.
If the criminal or criminals and the crimes comitted are within a country; that country should deal with it. If the crime is committed to another country. Then an indepentant body should deal with it.
The world is a society of nations. When one nation has a conflict with another , wars are declared. No country has declared war with us (nor have we declared war); so we are not at war. So why are are our soldiers fighting and some dying?
There is no such thing as war on terrorism. There are no terrorists. There are only criminals.
Individual criminals, groups of criminals, gangs, drug gangs, ethnic gangs,
motorcycle gangs, any number of gangs.
Yes , the IRA, ETA , the Taliban, Al Quaeda, etc. are all criminals and they should be treated as criminals. An indepentent body should go after them and bring them to justiuce through due process. It is not civilized for vigilantes, individual or groups to do so. We should never be part of that. We should be putting our whole effort into seeing that such a system gets organized.Only an independent judicial body has the right to go after those criminals. No individual nation has the right to "use the big stick".
08 May 09:03
Tom Good
Not too fast Bernie----depends which side you you view those actions. To the Republic of Ireland, those who gained Irish independence are heros----the IRA are another matter but they do seem to have a different status with American presidents and people than they do with the English. The American freedom fighters of the 1770's are highly revered in the US but, if caught, they would have been hung as criminals. Castro in Cuba---was he a criminal or was the dictator he replaced the criminal. Gammal Nassar and modern Egypt-- who was the criminal ---Nassar or King Farouk?? In the Second World War, all the Resistance Fighters were heros in our eyes and criminals in the eyes of the Germans.
Saudi Arabia has fostered Wahhabism which has given rise to the Al Quaeda and they supported the Taliban because it was a bulwak against more liberal Suffis. They both receive funds that originate in Saudi Arabia-----little like IRA financial support that originated in the US.----Messy world we live in. Lots of double dealing.
08 May 14:15
Bernie
I'm not too fast, Tom, in fact I'm rather slow. :-)
And you are right, it depends on what side of the fence you are on. I choose to be on the right side. :o).
When I say IRA I am talking about those of Northern Ireland who have been murdering innocent people for many years. My ancestors were Catholics from there and my family had nothing but the highest contempt for them. The leaders that they knew were barbaric, cruel evil men. willing to do anything for their own agenda, not for the interests of peace. As anywhere else in the world most citizens want to live in peace. The leaders do not represent them, tho they do a good job of persuading the masses that they do. For several years i worked with N. Irland immigrants, acents so thick I could hardly understand them. One Catholic, one Protestant. Here they were best of friends. They would laugh and say if they had stayed back home they would by necessity be bitter enemies, not because they were 'bad' people but because of the atmosphere and their leaders.
There is no cause so great that it gives one the right to take the life of an innocent.
I may be wrong but that's the side I am on. MY comments re the IRA would be the same for any other such organization. To me they are criminals.
Those who are fighting for a good cause, that is, where they fighting the oppresser and fighting for the good of others , not themselves. are entirely in a diferent category.
I have a high regard for Castro. What he did in Cuba is a wonderful thing. One only has to see what Cuba was like before 1959, and compare that to what it was like afterwards. Of course 90+ percent of the people at the time realized that and that's why he could hang around so long. The younger generation now just don't understand how bad it was. Eventually the rich ex-Cubans and the Americans will get back in and mess it up again. Of course, I disagree with the jailing of political dissidents and the limitations of freedom. I guess he deemed it necessary to achieve the objectives certainly in the eralier years.
Those who are figthing for just causes are not what I was referring to in the previous post but even those have no justification for willing and deliberately killing innocents.
Those other types are criminals. Within the country the law can deal with them .If they are international then we should have an international judiciary to deal with them
09 May 08:53
Tom Good
Morning Bernie:---Yes, the "troubles" of Northern Ireland were as much the lack of economic opportunity within the country as political.-- I haven't any doubt there was gross discrimination for jobs. The first reguirement for stability in any land is a full belly and a job followed by an education up to at least a functional level.---Off the blog topic again ! ! !
Yes, Castro was much better than Batista but he had the audacity to nationalize American interests therefore he was the devil incarnate to them. But again, Castro should have set up a mechanism of succession in governance then retired and allowed the type of governance to evolve-----little difficult when you have a neighbour like the US ready to ship troops over and meddle at a moments notice. Let the Cubans find oil off their shores and the whole situation will change overnight. Oil is Chavez's trump card otherwise the US would isolate his government---think Venezuela is right up there percentage-wise with Canada in supplying the US oil needs.---Petro politics is a dirty business and it is going to get worse with the requirements of China and India skyrocketing.
09 May 12:10
Bernie
Top o' the mornin' to ya.
I find myself agreeing with you, even when I have a different perspective. I guess because of different experiences.
Yes, Castro's action demonized him in the eyes of Americans. Of course, it was the US government's own fault. American administrations have a habit of trampling on others and then don't know why they are looked upon anything other than as friends. Then they have the audacity to blame the other party for it.
I agreed with Castro. I would have nationalized them too. A governments first priority is the security of it's poorest citizens. 90+% of Cubans were desparately poor back then. A few elites mostly Americans (or American controlled ) controlled the economy. They were not going to give up their gold mine willingly. It was easy for Castro because he had over 90% supporting him. I believe at heart Castro was democratic. and he should have done what you suggest . But he was terribly afraid of the US , afraid any crack would allow the the US tenacles to reach in and undo his revolution,and of course being idolized by his people was a powerful incentive to stay the course.
He wasn't negative to everyone. He was a good friend of Trudeau and Jimmy Carter. with the latter he had to wait until Carter was out of office.
Tom, did you ever hear of Mary McCarthy She's a young Canadian who married a rich Cuban The had a beautiful home in Havanna, owned businesses lots of land. When Castro came to power they lost everything except they were allowed to keep there house. Short afterwards the husband died or was killed, I dont remember which. In spite of everything Mary thinks the world of Castro. She says he did the right thing.
BTW two weeks ago she celebrated her 107th birthday.
10 May 08:38
Tom Good
Bernie, like all "politiciams", Castro stayed in office too long with no successors in sight. ---No, did not know of Mary McCarthy---she beats me by 29 years.
10 May 13:28
Tom Good
Morning, Tyrrell---Here is another thought about the Taliban and their fundamentalist Wahhabism. ---In the western world we have all sorts of groups that one describes as Christianity----Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox,fundalmentalists, Mormons and the list goes on AND, they may not like each other either. There have been wars over those differences in the past and the Inguisition was questioning a person's beliefs. The Muslem world is similarly divided. There are the Ottoman Muslems of the Balkans and Turkey who love poetry, song, dance and you know of the Whirling Dervishes and they are very liberal and accepting of other beliefs and peoples. The Shiah Moslems of Iran and Iraq are liberal and look to civil leadership as opposed to theological leadership. The Sunni of Iraq and going west can look to theological leadership and you see this in the Iraq conflict today. Then there are the ARAB Moslems of Saudi Arabia---very tribal--- who are the Wahhabis and they are the fundalmentalists who do not accept song, dance or other beliefs within their midst-----they see themselves as purists. Tied into the Middle East conflict is this underlying thrust for dominance in the Muslem world fueled by petro-dollars from Saudi Arabia. The Wahhabis are aggressively expanding over the Western World and are very influencial in the mosques on this continent-----we all should be very concerned.....In the West there was the subway incident in Britain, there has been the twenty or so youth plotters in Toronto and the 9/11 incident in the US----where did the 15 out of the 19 come from---their nationality????.Now the statues at Bamian----we recently had the Red Guard doing similar things in China to "purify" the land.----A strange world we live in.
11 May 13:55
Bernie
To try to compare our being in Afghanistan with the World War 1 and/or 2 is ridiculous. There is absolutely no basis for comparison..
It's leadership that gets us into trouble. The head of a country should be the folllower of all the people. We are not sheep; we don't need leaders. (Save them for the private sector)
07 May 08:47
Tom Good
Good points, Scientist. To United States we are a very important resource colony even if the general American public do not know we share a common border-----such as it is when one lives next door to the important. This is much the same relationship Canada had with Britain when she was at her zenith. Being a Westerner, we often wonder if we have that same relationship with Ottawa----suppose, today, we should be thankful we are not living in the Arctic as nobody would know who we were !!!!!
Yes, we are a democracy, but, as you say, capitalists/big-business have an undue influence with OUR legislators and that maybe the electors fault for not holding government accountable through the ballot box. At the moment, we are allowing the Security Prosperity Partnership--SPP---to go unchecked in as much as there is no public outcry---this is really scary.
I agree---multiculturalism is a concept whose day has come and gone. If one is attracted to Canada for whatever it stands for, then become a Canadian rather than trying to live in a cultural ghetto------the melting pot has its virtues.
06 May 15:48
icecoolputer
Hate to say it but the pot is not boiling! We are all swimming in the pot and nothing is melting to make it one culture. We have people demanding to wear their ceremonial daggers to school, we have soldiers refusing to remove their headwear to don their combat helmets. Other cultures are arriving and demanding that we follow their culture.
If you want to be Canadian, then leave that cultural crap at the border! We took over this place first, enough apologising to the natives already, and we are not about to give into the cultural ghetto!
Sorry Tom, but it is going to take a lot more for the melting pot to get warmed up.
06 May 16:54
Tom Good
Hey, Ice, we have to start somewhere. We should all stand up and say loudly and clearly that we are pleased to receive immigrants BUT be a Canadian first and ADAPT to the language, customs and the laws of the land they have chosen-----THEY MADE THE CHOICE OF CANADA. That should bring all the noisy human rights groups and the multicultural advocates out of the woodwork. Do you think that may get the "melting pot" simmering ?
06 May 20:07
blossom
Hi Tom,
I see your usual wisdom...However, for the elections, voters had to remove their
face gear out here, which was only reasonable. This is touchy grounds, however,
the Koran strictly states and adheres that, "When in Rome, do as the Romans
do", and that this is the law of the land. For a while, it was past the simmering stage
out here.
11 May 23:31
Tom Good
Hey Blossom----Currently in Turkey there is a debate raging as by law, the women are not to cover their faces---they can cover their heads. The fundamentalists are raising stink. Also, the Balkan Muslems are modern generally but then they are the Sufi or the Ottoman Muslems---same as Turkey---there was quite a thrust by the Wahhabis during the Balkan "War" but they and their brand of faith did not make many inroads. There is great Wahhabi influence in North America-----consider the implications.
12 May 00:20
NNL
Great points, and decent debate.
Multiculturalism could be the grandfather of political correctness. ;)
In looking at Canada, we have many different cultures here, and all are welcome, and should be encouraged, but NOT as a government supported effort.
In the Ontario legislature last week, in response to questioning from the opposition the government was speaking on how their flurry of spending on multicultural projects at the end of the fiscal year helped a group that had been trying to get a cultural centre together for 15 years.
Heck, no offense but if no one over that length of time was putting up their own funds, maybe there wasn't that much need for it.
In some ways, we have spent years in Canada looking down our collective noses at the American "Melting Pot", yet today we are seeing Canada become increasingly disconnected.
I think what we need is more leadership and less politics.
NNL
06 May 18:12
Tom Good
I agree with you NNL and might add a point on Canadian citizenship. I strongly believe that landed immigrants MUST function---read and write at least at the grade six level---- in one of the official languages BEFORE permanent citizenship is awarded. I further believe that if they participate in future criminal activity, that citizenship should be revoked and they receive a fast ride to the country of their origin. We seem to have our hands full with native born Canadians without importing the criminal minded who tie up our courts for years.
06 May 19:53
Bernie
I also believe we should allow people (as many as feasible) whether they have any education or financial resources, for humanity sake, if they are in dire straights. Many of our ancestors came under those conditions.
08 May 09:08
Tom Good
Hello Bernie: My suggestions certainly do not exclude refugees nor non French/English speakers-----they would receive landed immigrant status. BUT, before full citizenship was granted, and we assume there is a wait period, one of the two official languages should be mastered at the elementary level-----everybody should be able to read and write in our society.---
there should be government support for such an immigrant language programme-----I know, I know there are native born Canadians according to Stats Can who are not at the functioning level and too often they require support from the state.
08 May 13:45
blossom
Yes, Tom, I agree with the above totally...however, by nature am moderate...
I have no qualms with multiculturalism, and don't want to use political jargon,
but I also would like to see one generation born out here before people can vote.
I speak for Qc especially, because French speaking immigrants, who are not
yet aware of our politics can be a strong voice for nationalism. A first time offender,
should definately be sent back, if a major offense! This is what I was saying,
referring to Turkey; I have no qualms with the shawls on heads, but "no"
covered faces!!! The catholic nuns got rid of their head-gear, and their long skirts,
which were utterly unsanitary, and would not want to see us all dressed as in
Iranian tradition. Also immigrants, depending from where they come, need
protection, because they can be harassed by cells, as was the outcome last
summer in Toronto. If you remember, they had to "pay" for "protection" from their
own, and can become hostage to fanatic groups of their own. I have met people
from many Countries in my life, and basically, we all aspire and work for the best.
It is best to reach out to all, and give a helping hand, and this further ensures
the best possible relations, and people who want to integrate, because they do feel
welcome. Like it or not, we are all somewhat prejudiced, and afraid of the
unknown.
12 May 16:05
Tom Good
Hey, Blossom, we are all immigrants to this continent or our forefathers were immigrants. We trust that immigrants come to Canada for a better life and leave their strife and intollerances behind----but that is not always the case. The Air India tragedy is a case in point where the radicals were using Canada as a safe base from which to fight their cause in the land of their origin. The Tronto 20 were "recruited" through their association with their religious group which "sect" has been preaching hatred of the west----as far as I am concerned, they all come here to be Canadians or go home pronto.
12 May 18:42
blossom
Hi Tom,
Don't usually like to argue, as you know...However, one has to make the
distinction between immigration and terrorists. Certainly we are never going
to be able to live our lives, and travel as we used to; the world is totally changed
since 9/11...National security has become predominent, and we shall never be
as free as we were before that. But I do believe that until we stop making wars,
and address poverty, social justice, education,
in all Countries, that we shall not be safe from radical elements. It's up to us
to vote for the gov't that will ensure this in the future. Our ports and airports are
still not that secure; it's bad for business, and tourism.
12 May 22:11
blossom
Meant to say that the Air India tragedy is compounded by the fact that it
could have been avoided, apparently!
12 May 22:14
SwathingScientist1
Sad to say,the problem is,there IS no leadership in Canada.Everything IS politics.At every turn of the clock we are dealt another blow and we all,as a country,seem to just whine and cry for a few days and then just suck it up,go along.I sincerely think we turned a corner there's no coming back from when "Dief" was allowed to scrap/destroy the AveroArrow project.Everyone wanted it,the US airforce thirsted after it.Today,we could very well have been one of,if not THE country making the best,safest aircraft around.As with the metric system,the US stood up and said NO!!.We,on the other hand,whined for a while and sucked it up,the Politicians know this about Canadians,expect it,know they will get their way much sooner than later.Canada is fractured from coast to coast,we can't seem to,maybe don't want to,come together as a whole and stand up for ourselves because nobody wants to be the first to put their necks out there and get anything constructive started.It is no longer provable now but it was my grandfather who invented the original invention of Radar.Canada being what it was in the 1910's,he gave it away to what was once called "The Dept of the Navy" in the US.Just GAVE it away!.Goodness,radar and all the dirivatives from it still hasn't reached it's full potential but rather than use it for good as it was intended,the US has turned it into a new killing machine.Once you give something away,you have no claim to it,those that take it,can do as they choose with it,claim it as their own.
My father was a Cdn soldier stationed in Schofield Barracks when the Japs hit,lost most of one hand whwn a bomb went off near him,killed his partner.My brother was is Korea for the entire campaign,there was no rotation in those days.I,myself was once a part of what we knew as the Signal Corps and had postings in Kingston,Germany,Britain,BC and Edmonton before taking my release.Some things were worth fighting for but this entire Afghan/Iraq scenario is not about what is right or wrong,it is about land/bases and OIL and far,far too many innocents are dying and will continue to die for nothing.Are not their lives,their families just a important,as special as our own??.Goodness,do have a look at history,Right from day one when these so-called but not yet,Americans,started to slaughter the British throughout New England,families included.There hasn't been even ONE day of peace within America since the original 13 colonies came together and signed a tentative agreement which,by the way,WASN'T made official until 1789,NOT 1776 as Americans like to believe.At some point,at some place on the globe,ever since,the US has been at war with someone,even themselves in that ghastly cruel civil war.The word peace isn't in their vocabulary.They don't want peace,they want utter and complete domination,worldwide.Ever really listen to their National Anthem?,bombs bursting in air and all that kind of crud.This is not to say I am anti-American as in the people themselves,just very anti-administration.Sometime,just to see for yourselves,book yourselves a room,a suite in Niagara-On-the-Lake but must be a year or two in advance as everything is sewn up early.The week of Dominion day and July 4th,you'd see how regular people get along,wave each others flags,you can't tell Americans from Canadians for the entire affair.Shucks,there was a time when we used to bike across the borders for a nickle,get on the now,non-existant ferry from NOTL to Youngstown for a quarter and now,we have to have a special passport to visit friends and family??.However,as I stated before,get beyond the border states and Canada ceases to exist.They have our oil locked up,own the majority of all our businesses and manufacturing,Will Canada,in the not too distant future,cease to exist at all?,it's up to us but then who is the "US" going to be?.Can we not stop,somehow,bickering between provinces and come together as one people,fight to keep what is ours?,is it woth it?,I happen to think so but then,I'm pretty old now and not of much use,just taking up space.Thank you once again.
06 May 20:04
NNL
An interesting aside on the Avro Arrow -- If you read the biography of C. D. Howe, in it, they cite Howe as saying that the Liberals were planning to scrap the Arrow as well, only they were waiting until after the election to do so.
In 1958, the Liberals had been in power since 1936, and to a great degree there was no concept that they could be defeated by Diefenbaker.
On anthems, "Oh Canada, we stand on guard for thee..." contrasted to "Oh say can you see by the dawn's early light"... both have a certain base in military.
In Canada, we have piggy-backed in many ways on America's economy and booms and busts -- and we have sold off resources in the rawest form for generations.
Right now. The US is looking at re-opening the Softwood Lumber Agreement, one the current Conservatives solved at a cost of leaving a billion dollars on the table in duties the Americans owed.
Over the coming year, as the US housing market sags, our lumber industry will hit another low.
In our north, one of the bright spots is the diamond mining, in the Northwest Territories. The Ontario Government has raised the Royalty rates, doubling them, on diamond mining in the province (last provincial budget) and likely taked two mines out of the equation.
NNL
06 May 20:14
blossom
Hello Scientist,
Firstly, you are being pretty hard on yourself, don't you think? I guess we all take
up space, but that's our inherent right/priveledge. Besides, you are animating
our conversations, and we do need the feed-back.
But I do like your view as a Canadian, and that all Provinces should come together,
for the good of this Country. That we quibble a lot, but that we have a lot to be
thankful for. I also say that you are right, that we Canadians, not only take a lot
for granted, but that we also make the mistake of not contesting, and leave it only
to a few to do it for us.
I heard a historian say the other eve: "That the only thing we learn from history, is that
we do NOT learn!
12 May 22:33
Bernie
Well said, SwathingScientist1. One can accumulate quite a lot of wisdom in 7 decades. It's wise to pass it on to those who would listen.
07 May 08:38
SwathingScientist1
As I trust I stated earlier,I wish to see all kinds of immigration but we,as a country,are doing it--or allowing it--to be done the wrong way.
I would like very much to see these new migrants be given a stretch of land somewhere in the north of any province,say 10 acres of land that is just sitting there idle.Have them sign a legal agreement which states that if they clear the land,build on it and agree to stay there,at the end of a five year period,they gain complete title to the land for their hard work and settlement.As it is now,everyone is allowed to go to either Montreal/Toronto/Edmonton/Calgary/Vancouver where things are already in dire straits.It just over-burdens our welfare system and please do trust me when I say that these foreigners,many of whom cause a great deal of troubles for us all,are getting much better benefits than our seniors,our disabled and the poorer working classes.To say anything about it,your automatically labelled a racist or worse.Nearly all of our population is situated within 50 or so miles from the fabled 49th parallel.We NEED people willing to settle the north,build homes,families,villages or towns.Rather than bunch these folks all together in one place,which breeds problems,separate them,eliminate a lot of friction.Many of us,my own family included,cleared land,made a go of it without assistance,shucks,in my early days,there WAS no assistance.In this scenario in particular,elect people who aren't going to change our laws,customs on a day to day basis whichever way the wind seems to be blowing that day.Those of us who had a hand in making Canada what it is/was,have no say in anything,anymore and that's wrong.In short,live with me,laugh with me,love with me,enjoy this country with me BUT--don't shove your beliefs down my throat,you came here to get away from that,came here for a new start,a new life,so,PLEASE leave the old behind and look to the future.Lest I begin to ramble,I'll say cheerio,have a great day.
08 May 13:32
Tom Good
I do not disagree with you, Scientist, but not all immigrants are farmers and, I believe, the days of homesteading are long past. You are very right regarding government assistance to some immigrants----makes my blood boil when they find it more comfortable to accept welfare rather than work-----a small minority have a language and skills problem and it is not all their fault but rather a problem our government does not want to address. It upsets me to think their kids will perpetuate that way of life and not get the advantages of a good education. I believe one sees a lot of this in the major cities and I think of Toronto in particular, Others sit there, criticize our system, take everything they can get and what do we do????----think of the Kadhr family.----I believe you may be implying the multicultural aspect to immigration has had its day-----I wholeheartedly agree. ----The mini cultural ghettos are unacceptable today-----a Canadian first then what you wish-----The "melting pot" is the way to go racist or not---HoHo.
08 May 22:05
SwathingScientist1
Greetings Tom and everyone else too.
I hope I didn't give the wrong impression in mt last post.I try to keep it as short as possible and can't cover every area properly and in adequate details.Your right,of course,I wasn't referring to everyone,painting all with the same brush and regret you came to that conclusion.
It used to be that for an immigrant(s) to come to Canada,they had to have a sponsor who would see to and guarantee their needs as far as a place to live and financial support,not be a burden on general society.Perhaps at some point,I woke up on the wrong planet Tom,however I still feel the same.If we want to bring in various other immigrants,that's fine too but--they should have to work,volunteer somewhere to obtain assistance.Too much today,is just handed to them.I have absolutely NO prejudices,someone wants to come here,fine by me but as you say,one of the very first things is to learn the language and PROVE they are enrolled at some educational facility to do so.We have a fine establishment here,a school that was closed but quite large and is actively teaching a great many the english language.It being right across from my doctor's office,I see them coming out in what seems to be hundreds and that impresses me a lot.A hand up,not a hand out,I believe is appropriate.Let them know from day one this new country they wish to adopt is not a free ride.We have enough of those who were,sad to say,born here.
Likely not proper here on this site and if not,my apologises to the Host but I am from BC too,once lived right at Granville and Broadway in Vanc until I bought my home on Davies St.Worked for the then CPR as an assistant chef on the OLD Dominion before they mothballed it.Once a week to the Peg and back.Also had my own ride many times in the coffeshop car,made sure all the porters and other staff were properly fed,free,not charged as was the rule of CPR.I enjoy this website and those who participate,makes you think.Your last comment is heartening.I live in a complex now,in a handicapped unit,since 95 and in the last 5 years,the Regional Government is warehousing all the Muslims/Hindu's etc whenever someone moves out.I am the minority here and is distasteful.WE are letting this happen as we don't seem to want to stand together as one voice and tell these "officials" what we think.Do it alone,here,and they would simply have you find someplace else to live.Ah well,life goes on,the world continues to spin and it's Spring!!.Regards to all.
08 May 23:30
Bernie
I must say I don't see any of the negative things that I hear others talk about re immigrants or immigration. I am just not aware of it. It's not that I'm not expose to or associated with them.
In the office where I worked there were 24. Two of them were born in Onatrio, two others from other parts of Canada, all the rest were immigrants. I found them all good, honest, hardworking, and easy to work with. Where I live now, in the first house to my right they are from Pakistan, next from Syria, next Japan. To my left, the first is Sri Lanki, next Trinidad,next Scotland. Across from me is a Native Canadian, to his left a German and to his right another Scot. So I am very familiar with immigrants. I have never had the slightest problem with either on of them.
I find that those who have limited language skills or education doing the menial jobs that Canadians won't do. They do it for very low wages and often have two or three jobs.
They contribute a lot to our economy. They provide jobs for those who work in the service indusrty to serve immmigrant needs and those who work in manufactoring industries providing goods for them They soon create a larger market for those goods and services.
I envy their industriness. Unlike me who struggled alone to get what I got. I see them sometumes pooling their resources. Four of them pooling their money and saving to get a house. Then saving again until there is enough to buy another , whereby one moves out etc. Soon by working many odd jobs and saving every penny they each had a house, with everything in it, car, and more material things than I. And I applaud them for it. I am not aware of government giving them preferential treatment, nor of them not working. But I'm sure there is a small percentage of them out there. My experiences have all been positive.
S
09 May 09:39
blossom
Bernie,
Just read your article on immigrants, and I have to applaud you on it!
It depicts very much what I saw growing-up in this Province, and for instance,
we had a lot of Italians who came here penniless, and worked at many
jobs, especially in construction, and ended-up with homes that appreciated
tremendously when real estate prices rose. Most never asked for anything
from the gov't, and today, their children are college & University grads.
What's more, they were very much family oriented, and although keeping their
customs, chose to integrate the better part of our customs. It takes at least,
3 to 4 generations to achieve this, and a lot of discipline, because the welcome
wagon really never goes out to new immigrants. I immigrated to the US twice,
in my life, and possibly because I was Canadian, always had a warm welcome.
I never want to forget how Americans were genuinely friendly and helpful to me,
and how I was so well treated in the work-force...None of us own this Planet,
and whoever respects others, should have the right to come to realize their
dreams. This is the other aspect of immigration. Out here, we would do well
to give those who are licensed to practice Medicine, and other Professions, the
legal right to practice. Unfortunately, it has been determined that it is too
expensive by the govt? to practice this, and we are short of labour, and
Professionals, which is showing its toll on our staff in hospitals, and clinics. We
shall be paying a huge price for this, since we are not getting any younger, and
to solve this problem, hospitals are closing down wings, rather than bolstering
medical staff, and operating rooms.
12 May 17:18
Bernie
Thank you, Blossom. I think we both agree on how we should treat other human beings. I think we should treat them with respect. Unless or until they give us serious reasons not to.
It's sad to see profesional people doing menial tasks, driving taxis etc. when their skills are needed so badly. Our government should be making greater effort to correct the situation.
13 May 09:57
blossom
You bet!
13 May 14:10
Tom Good
Yes, Scientist, sponsored immigrants were never a burden on the system but, today, greater numbers are accommodated in the government sponsored refugee catagory where they are given welfare at a higher dollar figure than Canadian pensioners. This maybe justified in the short term BUT it should have a language and skills component which it doesn't. There is still the "family reunification" catagory and no financial assisstance attached. As the birth rate falls in Canada, the country will continue to need immigrants and, hopefully, skilled immigrants.
Know the parts of Vancouver you describe---my old great uncle, a Boer War veteran, used to live in a rooming house on Nelson and my father had his tugs serviced at the foot of Denman in Coal Harbour--never recognize the place today.
10 May 02:32
Bernie
"...greater numbers are accommodated in the government sponsored refugee catagory where they are given welfare at a higher dollar figure than Canadian pensioners."
I didn't know that. I guess that's why my pension is so small. :-(
The government should make greater effort to see exactly what we need and what we are able to accommodate.
There is another consideration too. If we have a certain standard of living and the people in others parts of the world in desparate starights are we not supposed to share even if our standard is reduced somewhat? We only have one planet and do we have a God-given right to a certain section of it at the exclusion of others?
There has to be a balance, but where do we draw the line?
10 May 08:56
Tom Good
WOW----Bernie, your last paragraph would open up a hornets nest. Population numbers were seen as one thrust to do as you suggest and all the idiological religious zealots shredded any thought of birth control. Third world development monies should be in every budget of the developed countries and usually is BUT throwing money at a problem does not make it go away. One thrust I see---the "fair value" products such as coffee, assures that the farmer gets a fair value for his product ( I hope) and, in turn, can afford the food for his plate and can educate his kids. Of course, capital flees to the land of the cheapest labour and we, in turn, flock to their stores to buy the less expensive products---Wal-Mart is a good example. However, even that cheap labour does gain some skills if it is in a manufacturing situation---there is some good in time but it usually is nearly slave labour to begin with.
10 May 13:57
blossom
Hello Tom, Bernie, and S, Have read all of your ideas, and having so much
trouble with my computer that I can't follow any more, but just wanted to
say that I "never" buy at Wal-Mart's (boycott), because of the many
instances whereby they have misbehaved with their own employees.
They have been held accountable in Courts, and do not condone a
company which has been unfair to their employees. Tom, as you say,
it is slave labour, and, perhaps it has been in China, that there has been
abuses with children. Just want to add that as S. said, I also really like
Nik's blog.
11 May 00:49
Bernie
Blossom, did you buy your computer at Wal-mart's? Just kidding.
We avoid them like the plague. They have too much money. Money gives power and they use that power have negative effects on others, and to benefit themselves, a few at the top..
They push out the smaller local stores. I don't think they have allowed unions in any of their stores yet.
11 May 07:27
blossom
Hi Bernie,
No...not Wal-Mart's. I love my computer, but am not computer wise!!!
But I welcome suggestions.
They tried to get a "union", but lost in Qc. in one of their stores.
They also will, or have introduced a "puce" which will tell them exactly
what you own in your house. Replenish their shelves. Many of their
workers, (women), have told me, that they wait for openings in
Zellers, and are more fairly treated, and better pay! Besides, their
cheap, structural, ugly buildings, without grass, trees, and a few
benches to rest outside, are totally uninspiring for shopping. English
is not particularly spoken??? to clients. Hope that they get some
hints from this blog!
11 May 22:54
Bernie
Yes, Wal-Mart like most big companies can get away with a lot of things. Our governments should be more pro-active and see that these companies don't impose themselves on the rights of others. People shouldn't have to organize and fight these people, most of us have our own daily living problems to deal with. The government should do it for us. That's what we elect them for
I' m afraid Wal-Mart don't pay any attention to us. The only 'hint' they get is from the bottom line.
12 May 07:23
blossom
Bernie, I feel also that gov't's should do the fighting for us, and that
we do not have the time, however, one can always boycott them!
Same for prices at the pump!
12 May 16:49
Bernie
"WOW----Bernie, your last paragraph would open up a hornets nest."
Ha Ha Yes, that would be a real mess wouldn't it. Well it was just a rhetorical or speculative quesrtion. I wonder what a professor of philosophy or ethics would say about it.
Your comments brings up another pet peeve I have. That's CIDA, another "institution I woul;d disband. But that's an issue for another time.
11 May 07:17
blossom
Bernie,
Unfortunately there are no professor's, or schools for "ethics and values"...
One can see this lacking in our politics, and politicians of today!
12 May 16:10
blossom
Hi Tom,
Harper is not playing his cards right...Since when is the Press allowed only photo-ops
to report major events to its citizens? He no longer feels that he has to answer to the
Press!!! I thought that the freedom of speech was part of our Democracy? Are we going
to lose this right also? Harper is an avid military freak! He has become the Press. Did you see the 'bush' ads,
whereby Harper uses the same "titles". He is using the same scare tactics, and
Canadians are not duped. It was a "myth" concocted by someone who said that he
is a good tactician, and strategist. He's always on the wong side of the issues, and
promoting "his" war! The medias and the Press are starting to pay attention though.
I have a feeling that the tables are going to turn on him next Fall, because this can not
continue. I find it interesting to hear that others are e-mailing the PM, and either not
getting straight answers, or no acknowledgements at all...this certainly sends us all
a strong message!!!
Take care,
02 Jun 15:21
Tom Good
Hey Blossom: In my opinion, Harper is a good tactician but who said we had to agree with him------I agree, he is a Bushie and thinks he sits on the right hand of God along with George.
From what I read, I like the compromise budget the PQ forced upon Charet. Like all politicians, Charet has a strong survival instinct----little like some of the Gilbert and Sullivan operettas where they attest to one thing and are quite prepared to do another. Just politics ! ! !
02 Jun 16:58
blossom
Tom, Thank whoever that Gilbert and Sullivan survived, because we will never hear such heavenly music again!
However, Tom, I would change the word tactician to bulley! and definately hope to sit
someday on the not too far left side, and in the middle...but far from the right!
What did you possibly like about the pq compromise re. Premier Charest's budget?
They knew that another election out here, would let all hell loose, and that all
parties had a third of the votes only, and that the population out here would be wild!
The pq's next unelected leader was refuted twice when she wanted to be party leader, and has
gall, but no respect for herself, nor the electorate!
dumont's adq as the official opposition repudiated the budget before it was announced,
and refused to meet with the Charest Liberal gov't, and make changes, while the pq had
no choice but to do so. Don't kid yourselves out there, mario dumont, is not just
a nationalist, but a separatist!!! Why was Harper flirting with his party (no candidates, and
a one man show, just before our national elections)? 'Cause he's on the right?
Hoping for more votes?
Out here we have a French separatist news station who disgredits everything that our
Premier tries to do, and coherces to the pq movement. Who is helping the Anglophones
out here, in the medias...All the live coverage is on a French separatist station!!!
They prey on poor people's emotions, and the news is biased and in French, so that
many do not get the other side of the equation. Nova Scotia has after 20 yrs, finally
realized to launch a law suit against RDI because they are not represented on national
tele news! Good for them!!! Out here, it's only Qc that counts.
I have said it before, that when Jean Charest came to power, he had a huge deficit,
from the pq!!!
As in most provinces we have a shortage of nurses - well, now they are picking on
extremely competent nurses, and ousting them because they feel that their French
is not good enough. 71 of them!!! During this time the pq, who retired Doctors and
nurses, are asking for more monies...Charest is not the bank! Charest felt that
to stimulate growth, he had to help the "middle class". During his re-election campagain,
M. Charest was blasted by dumont's adq for not giving tax-breaks. Our Premier gets it from all
sides out here. Even within his own party there is frenzy. He's constantly rediculed,
and confronted...Just like Stephane Dion...Every time we get a decent Leader, we
pounce on him, and then we wonder why we are stuck with politicians that we do not
want, and the way they are heading our Country.
All I can say Tom, is that the news seems to get distorted in every Province!
I was just fortunate enought before you e-mailed me to listen to Al Gore's discourse
at the George Washington Univ., on c-span, talking about his new book "Assault On
Reason" and about what I mentioned earlier about the "Free Press"...It's worth
listening to, because this is the basis for our Democratic system. We are losing
it rapidly by misinformation, and biased information and to those who want to hold
the power!
02 Jun 19:27
Tom Good
Evening Blossom: Several points for comment. Charet inherited a big deficit but he has made it bigger just as out Gordon Campbell has done in BC. If I am correct, Charet wanted to address the deficit by cutting back on the civil service for one thing but the unions threatened tp put a stick of dynamite up his backside so he backed down. The PQ compromises---I was pleased to see the social aspects pushed for example, senior home care, dollars to help students stay in school(whatever that is) and dollars for regional development as well as keeping the taxes on the oil giants and the financial institutions.-- Yes, some qovernment in Quebec---and in BC--is going to have to address that deficit but, at the moment, we are happily sailing on into the sunset. We get the politicians we elect BUT not all the electorate, particularly the young ones, bother to get out to vote but they do complain.------Free Press you say---well did you hear John R MacArthur, publisher of Harper's, won the Mechlin Award for reporting ? MacArthur says reporters/correspondents can be bought therefore it is not journalism but politics. He cited a number of cases but two stand out----Judith Miller and the babies thrown out of incubators when Iran invaded Kuwait---she was subsequently exposed and fired and the publisher of the New York Times who sat upon the Bush domestic wire tap scandal for over 10 months until after the last American election---would have changed the election results. Also think of the "embedded" reporters in the Afghan or Iraqi scenes---political reporting and not journalism. There is a free press around somewhere but there is also a well funded---with our money-- political press.
02 Jun 22:34
blossom
Tom,
I believe that we are saying about the same thing...Sure the young do not vote.
We need Unions, but they are doing the governing, by forcing political parties to
adhere to their policies. Judith Miller, of the N.Y.Times
went to jail for three mths. for not releasing her sources, which is still a contentious
point in leakage in gov't...It also revealed that Valerie Plame was working for the
CIA, and has lost her job. Her husband, Ambassador Joe Wilson, who went to Africa,
to prove that there had not been any WMD that led to the Iraq war, was totally
clobbered by the 'bush' administration. The scandals in this US administration
surpases all others! It all depends on who owns the papers, the medias.
There is one authority on Afghanistan, his name I have forgotten, and has
recently written a book about it, who told Peter Mansbridge in a one-on-one
interview, that we shall not prevail out there, and the reasoning behind it.
Most of it we know, and the rest is misleading because we are being told what
the gov't wants us to know only. Its' not just that reporters can be bought, but
they can be made to keep quiet, or else! It's another area where they do not
stick together. One reporter in trouble, is on his own! It's not easy to fight
City Hall.
As for Gordon Campbell, he seems all hyped-up to engage with California's
governor to make an alliance for progress, and investments for your province,
and a more sustainable green economy. Out here, we look forward to fighting
the pequistes, the unions, and anybody who wants to innovate. No wonder that
we are poor!
Will go on a bit of a rampage with you, but do you know that McGill univ. lab
students have to stay dressed (boots & all in winter), because they have no
heating, and the building is decrepit? We had a beautiful achitectural Library,
whereby, they decided to build a new one, which is falling at the seems from day
one. Our downtown sector needs much revamping, and at what cost, and for
how many years? Sure, the pq is so for moral justice - what did they do when they
had the monopoly? Filled their pockets, and took off! What our Premier inherited,
was enough to make anybody unpopular...Charest asked the students to pay
$50, twice a year, and they revolted. Out here, we want everything for free...
So much so, that L'UCAM, without consulting with our gov't can't finance their
new university, and had to get rid of the genius who took it upon himself to
build it. Univ. of Mtl. also has a great defecit. Our roads are made of pot-holes!
Are we going to blame our Premier for this...he wasen't responsible for all of this.
Mt-Orford which is a cherished Park, and where our Premier was born, tried to
create jobs by building Condos out there - Oh no, the adq wouldn't hear of it.
The Park is vast, and would have used a small portion to create jobs, and tourism. Tom,
I would like to finish on a lighter note, and assure you that Jean Charest is
rigorous on his stand for education at all levels, and for all.
Sorry if I deviated a little, but to say that the qequistes are honourable is a phalasy,
and they have proved it! They should have been bouted-out, long ago, for treason!
It would be nice if we could, just as in your province, change gov'ts because of
their policies, but out here, we do not have this advantage, because we must always
vote for the party that will keep us within Confederation. This is a problem that no
other province has to contend with. Don't think that the qequistes haven't cooked
the books!
Just want to add that when the 'bloc' voted for the softwood lumber deal; is it still
good for Qc and other parts of Canada?
Take care,
03 Jun 01:26
NNL
I think that one of the reasons that many Canadians don't understand, or support the mission is that there are so few reports on what the mission is all about.
We get what I call long-standing media coverage when there is a casualty, or soldiers wounded. There are few reports of the successes that our troops are having.
From blogs written by troops, and comments from the families of some of our soldiers who have died in Afghanistan, their level of support is high for the Afghanistan mission.
If it were the quagmire that the long-standing media reports, chances are the troops would want out too.
James
[updated Sun May 06 09:14:36 EDT 2007]
06 May 09:14
16 replies so far. Join this conversationHide this conversation.
Bernie
The way politicians communicate their message about the issues, namely foreign and domestic may determine whether those priorities take precedence. Judging from the mood of the voters now it would appear that it would beneficial for the Conservatives to focus on domestic and to play down the foreign. The Liberals would be doing the reverse.
I would place the environment first and make Afghan a secondary or lower issue
I agree that it would be unusual for foreign policy to be the number one issue. Since the opposition parties seem to be scoring more points on this issue it would be wise for them to keep that in the limelight.
Personally I find the polls do not to correspond to what I think most Canadians think about these issues. I don't have much interaction with people across Canada so my opinions are based on those I do communicate with, people I associate with and with gut feeling. On Afghanistan, the environment and many social issues I find myself agreeing with the majority of opinion coming out of Quebec. I have a feeling that a greater percent of Canadians across Canada have the same feelings but the media or politicians (or the polls) are not recoginizing this.
Most people I talk to, deplore our "mission" in Afghanistan. I put mission in quotation because it is a misnomer. It's used incessantly by politicians and the media and I cringe when I hear it. Mission, to me, is a good positive word. The debacle in Afghanistan is not. It's a craven, grovelling ass kissing to George Bush Chretien was wise enough to say NO to Iraq, but the obsequious Paul Martin was quite willing to sacrifice Canadian citizens lives to appease Bush.
Harper is trying to elevate such vassalage to a higher level (an oxymoron) The whole charade is a farce, an insult to Canadian decency. Everytime Harper, O'Connor, or Hillier says otherwise it lowers any respect I may have had for them. Most Canadians know this already and soon practically all of them will.
To me the casualties don't alter my position. It would be the same whether there were one or one thousand. It.s wrong to be there under those circumstances. Nothing else matters. It's more important to be on the side of righteousness.
For thinking Canadians it is not the issues, whether foreign or domestic, that matters most. It's how the politicians deal with them. I am sure that if politicians had real true beliefs and policy positions based on those beliefs they would get much more support. If they explained what they were going to do, why and how and did so truthfully we may accept them. For example the Conservatives if they were honest about Afghanistan or about the environment many say, ok. we'll give them a try. But so much of what they say about those two issues are blatant lies. It is not the way they say it is and most Canadians can see that. This propensity to try and fool the electorate is doing them in.
So for me and many other Canadians, it is not foreign nor domestic policy, but the honesty in presenting their position that determines who we support. And as of this moment none of the top three will get my vote.
06 May 09:50
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Mike
Hi Nik
The Conservatives have claimed the Afghanistan mission as their own. One of their first moves when taking power was to force an extension of the Afghanistan mission by two years. The timing of the vote in the house was intended to take advantage of the leaderless liberals and trap the opposition into supporting the extension. In the publics mind it became “Harpers war”
Of course if casualties rise, this will bring attention to the conservative’s foreign policy, including their position or opposition to the Kyoto protocol, the measured response by Israel against Lebanon. Obviously foreign affair is not the conservative’s strong suite, unless they are using it to distracting attention from their dismal domestic policy. I seriously doubt Canadians want to experience the G. W. Bush’s right wing tactics north of the border.
06 May 15:50
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icecoolputer
What is the primary job of a soldier? His/her job is to kill the enemy, as ordered by his leaders. The human in the soldier knows that this is usually against his morals, and will do so only when they don't have a choice. We have a higher moral standard to follow, and this is not the same standard that is in the Taliban. This war is different. There are no uniforms and no government to oppose. Instead, we are fighting the ideal of radical Islamic Jihad. They do not want to lose their power and are resorting to fighting in the dirtiest of ways, and with our morals, we cannot fight at their level. Will this possibly lead to Taliban doing something in Canada? It could, but I will not worry about that. I know that if they do our mission will change. Our people will want to bring our soldiers home. Our mission cannot change!
I do not like the fact that our soldiers are getting killed by cowards. Those cowards would rather send desperate people to destroy themselves and those who are trying to help a population who has seen nothing but wars for the past 60 or so years. I have no respect for the suicide bombers and their ilk. I respect our soldiers for putting their lives on the line. it takes a person with a lot of courage to go knowing that you are possibly going to die. Despite the fact that you are there trying to rebuild schools and hospitals, and try to bring a semblance of normalcy to a country which has pretty much never had some, well you need your country to back you 100% Both Quebec and the rest of Canada.
Our country's leaders made a difficult choice to send our soldiers to a war torn country to try and help them become able to take care of themselves without the danger of the Taliban and Al-quaida. You don't change a way of thinking overnight and throw on a band-aid fix. It is going to be a long a dirty situation, one that could last 20 years.
Our leaders don't like that idea, and will jump on the bandwagon to blame the party in power over the losses in personnel, and expenses over the war, and so on. Sorry folks, but this is a long haul mission, and leaving in 2008 or 2009 is not going to be enough. Our politicians may force us out of there by then, but leaving when the job is only 20% done???
At that point the war might be over for us, but in 20 years when the Taliban has taken over the country again, and is building nukes for use in the USA, we will be looking back with 20/20 eyes, knowing we could have helped the Afgany people become a thriving peaceful economy selling something other than the opium and drugs they presently produce.
Until the Afghan people see that things are better FOR THEM, they are only going to see the deaths caused by Allied forces and are not going to be willing to walk up to the Allied soldiers and say "Hey! That guy is Taliban and blows people up! Arrest him!".
Will this be an election problem? You bet! Should it be? For the sake of the Afghanistan people, I hope it isn't because this will come back and bite us in the ass!
[updated Sun May 06 15:53:00 EDT 2007]
06 May 15:53
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supper
No doubting that Afghanistan and the Harper war policy are the elephant in the living room. No one wants to dis our soldiers, but very few are in favor of this war. If Harper wants to win the next election, he has to hope that his buddy Jack keeps him in power long enough to wind down this war. Than they both have to hope for no bad news on the climate change front.
[updated Sun May 06 17:45:07 EDT 2007]
06 May 17:45
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Regina Beach Boy
Let me get this straight:
The Liberals got us into the war--Conservatives pay the price
The Liberals sign the original detainee agreement--Conservatives pay the price
The Liberals sign Kyoto,do nothing for 10 years--Conservatives pay the price
Where would we be without the Globe, CBC and Toronto star to tell us what to believe!!! LOL
Just when I was feeling good about being a traditional Canadian again.
[updated Mon May 07 00:37:10 EDT 2007]
07 May 00:37
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Smitty
The question "should Canada pull out if casualties continue" is based on the false premise that opposition to the war is caused by the "body bag syndrome". Yet Quebec has not yet had its turn in Southern Afghanistan and opposition there is the highest. Nor are there any body bags coming back to Canada from Iraq, yet opposition to that war is also intense in Quebec. SImilarly, opposition to Canada's support of Israeli bombing of Lebanese civilians was strongest in Quebec.
At most the bodies coming home highlight that a war is taking place. If the war was seen to be justified, necessary and internationally supported, Canadians, including Quebec, would support it regardless of the casualties. Your survey would best focus on the reasons for opposition to the war - but that might cause even greater shock to Mr Harper!
[updated Mon May 07 01:17:15 EDT 2007]
07 May 01:17
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Pressman
Wars are seldom good politics. The fighting in Afghanistan is no exception. We are apparently going to be there no matter what happens for at least several more years. The body count will continue to grow and so will the political discontent. Victory will be as elusive a goal to define as will progress. The Prime Minister and his front bench say repeatedly in the House those who don't support the war aren't supporting the troops and are Tailban sympathisers. Why should Canadians trust a government who equates patriotism with partisanship and whose only goal is to get a majority even if it means using wedge politics to create divisions among us?
07 May 11:39
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blossom
Hello Nik:
Personally I feel that Afghanistan will be a big election issue, and that we can no longer
dismiss Foreign policy, which now has a huge impact on all Countries. France voted right-
wing, G.Britain will also be more to the right, with Brown...Qc voted for the adq, which is
more to the right, however, I do not parallel this change with more votes for the Harper
gov't. at all! More casualties in Afghanistan will influence Canadians negatively, however,
this is not the real issue. Just as in Iraq, very few people know the real truth out there, and
what is really happening. Same in Afghanistan. Canadians do not know why they are fighting
out there, since the peace-keeping mission has changed drastically, and are beginning to
understand that it is not their war!!! That as the Americans are realizing, they have become
more unpopular with the rest of the world, and may be attracting more terrorist for the
future, out here! Contrarily to what they had been told by the 'bush' and cronies' administration.
Only Tony Blair, and against his own good judgment, joined the US in Iraq, but the rest of
the Countries refused to support the war in Iraq...We shall have the same dilemma in
Afghanistan, however, will it be too late to pull out? It's not like World War 11 where
everybody was fighting for a united cause. Remember last year, Nik, when the Harper gov't
did not want to have public funerals for the soldiers, because they did not want us counting?
Amnesty International had to send petitions so that the last World War 11 soldier could
have a memorial service, and that veterans had proper, and decent pensions? Now, the Harper gov't, and Rick Hillier caught on to the message
that they should really honour our fallen soldiers, and in public, in order to boost this war.
It's definately going to be a big issue in the next Federal election, along with a lot of other
important issues whereby this gov't is not giving us adequate info, and where is the
accountability and transparency that they had promised, and campaigned on?
12 May 16:39
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wyly
I knew it was an unwinable war when we went in...Politicians are lousy at history and ignore it repeatedly, we stumbled into a civil war we had no business taking sides in, al queda was removed and that should have been the end of the mission...the Taliban was for the Afghanstan people to remove not us...
[updated Fri Oct 10 12:14:28 EDT 2008]
10 Oct 12:14
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